Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: SharpStick on March 31, 2018, 03:37:45 PM
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I've viewed lots of discussions and opinions regarding how to clean muzzleloaders. For most of my rifles and handguns I can just look down the barrel and maybe shine a light from the opposite end and easily see how clean the barrel is. Not so for a muzzleloader. So after my last shooting adventure I pulled out my endoscope camera and took a look after each step through the cleaning process. Thought I'd share the pictures here.
I had taken about 20 shots without swabbing or cleaning in any way. Due to the limits on picture size per post I'll do them in batches following each stage in the process. Here's the process I followed:
- Dirty barrel
- Filled with tepid water for 5 minutes then drained
- Swabbed water in and out 6 strokes with mop (with tubing attached to nipple leading to jar of tepid water)
- Swabbed with dry mop
- Swabbed with patches, first with Lehi Valley Lube/Cleaner/Preservative then dry
Here are the pictures of the dirty barrel.
Just inside the muzzle:
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Abut halfway down the barrel:
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At the "chamber" (I don't know what else to call this end of the barrel):
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Backed out a little. You can definitely see the transition from where powder sits and further up the barrel.
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Here are pictures after letting soak in tepid water
Muzzle:
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Barrel:
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Chamber - you can see some water on the lower left and it's starting to look shiny in there:
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After swabbing water in and out through nipple.
Muzzle
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Barrel
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Chamber
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After dry mopping
Muzzle
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Barrel
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Chamber
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After patches with Lehi Valley L/C/P and dry
Muzzle
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Barrel
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Chamber
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And just for fun, here's a link to video of entire barrel - https://www.dropbox.com/s/ougdwg4vyjr68ky/barrel.mp4?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ougdwg4vyjr68ky/barrel.mp4?dl=0) I hope it works.
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Hello SharpStick,
I don't own a camera that will get pictures of inside my rifles bore's,,, but I clean/swab until I'm getting clean white patches, then run dry patches to dry out the bore, then they get a lite coat of Birchwood Casey Gun Sheath oil. After all that I go into a dark room and shine a "pin" flashlight down the muzzle and it reflects a bright shinny bore and breech plug area... That's how I tell if I'm clean, but it's really the patches themselves that tell me through reading how clean they are coming out of the bore. :shake
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I swab with moose milk after shooting until pretty clean, then clean the barrel with water, dry patches until getting clean white patches. At which point I'm satisfied and then oil it up.
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I use water and cloth patches until they come out clean. Then I dry and oil with wd40 or lehigh valley lube or ballistol etc.... Sometimes during the end of the wet process, the patches have a slight grey tint to them due to the water, but the bore is clean. There is no crime in using a bore light to make sure.
K
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Ever since I seasoned my bores with Ox-Yoke Bore Butter 1000+ (about 30+ years ago), I simply flush the bore, breechblock & ignition channel (the nipple is removed & cleaned under a hot water tap & blown out/dry) with T/C's #10 Bore Cleaner (aka: Moose Milk), pump a few patches soaked with the same up/down the bore a few times before running dry patches downbore.
The last thing I do to the bore before putting the smokepole away until the next time (sometimes 10+ months) is to run a loose patch charged with Bore Butter downbore once to recoat the metal. (I wipe down the exterior metal with that same last patch.
YMMV, but over the 30+ years, I've never experienced any rusting (inside or out), and the accuract has always been about minute-of-deer-ear. ;)
.
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I always enjoy reading these posts, as they clearly show there are more ways to skin a Cat than just one.
The OP on "How clean is clean enough?" Is really the individuals choice and there are many ways to get there.
In 60 plus years of owning and shooting muzzleloaders, receiving my first one about 1950 or 1951, I have never had or seen rust in the bore of my guns that a quick wiping wouldn't remove.
Now I've seen others that had some pretty ugly 'stuff' in their bore, and I have always wondered how a person could allow that happen, when even the most basic of cleaning and care can prevent it.
I have used "Ed's Red" for that 'final' wipe & swab since ol' Shep was a pup, and I've yet to find any rust in my guns after sitting for as long as a year or two.
There are plenty of things on the market that will take care of the rust problem, and most shooters are not afraid to use them!
if there is anything in this world that will totally ruin your Muzzleloader, it is laziness and total neglect.....don't ever let that happen!
Uncle Russ....
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I have used "Ed's Red" for that 'final' wipe & swab since ol' Shep was a pup, and I've yet to find any rust in my guns after sitting for as long as a year or two.
M-y-y-y goodness, Uncle Russ! I thought I was the only one to use Ed's Red on my muzzleloaders. :toast
Now I haven't been at it as long as you, having bought my first black powder pistol (Dixie's Navy Colt replica I got from a fellow technician on the White Alice System for $30, with a Dixie "hair straightener" ball mold, a bag of balls and a pound of ffg DuPont thrown in to get me started back in 1968), and I didn't learn about Ed's Red until several years ago but it sure does the job on ALL my guns! Good stuff for sure.
-Kees-
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I always enjoy reading these posts, as they clearly show there are more ways to skin a Cat than just one.
The OP on "How clean is clean enough?" Is really the individuals choice and there are many ways to get there.
In 60 plus years of owning and shooting muzzleloaders, receiving my first one about 1950 or 1951, I have never had or seen rust in the bore of my guns that a quick wiping wouldn't remove.
Now I've seen others that had some pretty ugly 'stuff' in their bore, and I have always wondered how a person could allow that happen, when even the most basic of cleaning and care can prevent it.
I have used "Ed's Red" for that 'final' wipe & swab since ol' Shep was a pup, and I've yet to find any rust in my guns after sitting for as long as a year or two.
There are plenty of things on the market that will take care of the rust problem, and most shooters are not afraid to use them!
if there is anything in this world that will totally ruin your Muzzleloader, it is laziness and total neglect.....don't ever let that happen!
Uncle Russ....
Russ, I just googled Ed's Red. Never heard of it. Do you mix your own or buy the premixed stuff that brownell's sells? It says it's a bore cleaner. Are you using that as a final "oil" wipe as well?
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Paul, I've always made my own. I wasn't aware you could buy it commercially.
I will be the 1st to admit that the initial batch is a bit spendy, if you dont have any 'left-overs' to start with.
Likely the most expensive component will be the Anhydrous Lanolyn, but that is an optional ingredient anyway.
When I make a batch, I make well over a gallon.
And, luckily, I discovered a long time back that you can buy little 'Travel Bottles' from Wally World that are very inexpensive and work great for all those "buddies" you suddenly find yourself with.😇
Yes, I wipe the bore, and everything metal I can get to without disassembly at the range.....then, after I get home and actually clean the gun, including the lock, I let the gun dry good, and wipe everything down again with Ed's Red.
Kees can tell you, there is just nothing better for this purpose!
A bit of a pain in the "you know what" to put together.
However, you will end up with enough lube/protectant to last you for years, and if you have several grandsons in their twenties, and each with their own collection of guns, it will cut down on them stealing yours, every time they "just stopped by to see how your doing".
Anymore, when my grandkids 'just drop by', I make them keep their hands in their pockets before they go inà the shop.
Ed's Red, its hard to beat!
I'm sure there's plenty 'good stuff' on the market that you can buy that may work just as well, without the hassle of making Ed's Red.
I have tried a lot, if not most, and I have never found anything that will even come close....you need to Google... Ed Harris, he knew a little bit about shooting cast too.
Uncle Russ.....
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Ed's Red,,, I've heard a 'lot of talk about this cleaner. Have never used it myself, but you guys got me thinking, so I looked it up... I was right with it until the part about the Acetone. That made me shy away for fear of stock discoloration since most the ML's I shoot the barrel's are pinned to their stock and I seldom remove them.
However, the ones that are wedged to the stock,,, well,,, I'm thinking again! :bl th up
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I don't really want to buy all those chemicals and mix up a big batch but brownell's sells it and it's suppose to be the exact formula Ed Harris used. I may get a small container and try it on a gun .
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The following is not for everyone, but one of the reasons I like to shoot and hunt with traditional muzzleloaders is the simplicity and also the economy (at least after you buy the gun). I have found that you can find most things to take care of your gun already in your faucet, your pantry and/or garage. I clean my barrel with water. I lube/protect my barrel with sweet oil melted/mixed with a little beeswax. If I happen to have some bear oil around I'll use that instead of the sweet oil. I rub the stock and exterior parts with the same. My bores are clean and my guns shoot straighter than I can hold em.
For modern contrivances, I will often use WD40 to displace any extra moisture in the bore when at home and before I lube. eazy peazy.
Any more than that seems like over-kill to me. clean is clean and super extra clean does not seem to be necessary, and besides, it irritates my tendency towards older simpler ways. The idea of buying some special whizbang wonder jelly and having to rely on that the rest of my shooting days does not appeal to me. I also shoot black powder cartridge rifle and modern pistol too, and I tend towards "less is more" with those as well.
K
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FYI:
http://handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=9
-Kees-
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I am sure reds is really good stuff. I have tried other recipes and products in the past and they most all work. I just like the simplicity of water. Its historically correct for the era of my guns too, which is something that is important to me. I can't judge anyone in that regard though because I use WD40 when I am at home and nobody is lookin.
K
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I understand. Sometimes we get so involved with our reading and our own experimenting we overlook the basic concept of simplicity.....it's easy to do, and many of us are guilty.
But has anyone for one minute, ever thought those same guys may be having fun too?
And isn't that what it's really all about?
Uncle Russ...
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Plain old water is great, but I can't use it for my muzzleloaders when cleaning here at home for one big reason, I have a water softener and they feed on salt - so I certainly don't want to use salt water to clean my ML's... I'll stick with my Dollar Store - $1.00 per gallon windshield washer fluid for now - to which I add 16 ounces of 98% Alcohol... I'm no stranger to using water to clean my muzzleloaders with as I use to when I lived at places that didn't have a water-softener. The way I see it is whatever works best for each individual for whatever reasons is all good. :shake
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Sure. Its human nature to want to come up with a better mouse trap! We all do that at times don't we? I bet the old dead guys did that too, and yes, its fun for us to do!
Actually I enjoy cleaning my muzzleloaders and consider it part of the historical shooting experience. But its not my favorite part of the experience, so keeping it simple and quick is key for me. Adding more modern chemicals and processes detract from the historical aspect? As I posted above, my ways are not for everyone. I'd not consider using more modern cleaning methods for my muzzleloaders any more than I would consider buying and shooting a modern inline. But saying that, we all have to make certain modern compromises and there is no way I can say my compromises are in any way more purer or better than anyone else's. They just fit my own preferences is all (as yours do for you). yes.... its all good.
My well water goes thru a softening process but it also goes thru a separate reverse osmosis process at the sink, and about everything is removed from it (even the good stuff). So my water is probably too clean. I bet 18th C creek water contained salts and minerals that do not do a rifle bore any favors, But how do we know modern solvents don't also etch the bore on a microscopic level? That might be how it gets your bore so pristine. Acetone is a powerful stripping chemical. Do you ever have any issues with it messing with your stock finish? Just curious. Water can be a strong force on rock and metals. I have seen it used to cut solid granite for counter tops, and it was used to make the deepest canyons on earth.
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I wish I could get my hands on some sperm whale oil and bear grease, then I'd be doing it the good ol' way. But then I would need a soft iron hand forged barrel too....
Dang it all, I'll just have to make do with what I gots...
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I wish I could get my hands on some sperm whale oil and bear grease, then I'd be doing it the good ol' way. But then I would need a soft iron hand forged barrel too....
Dang it all, I'll just have to make do with what I gots...
I would love to have...."what you gots"!
I agree those two items mentioned are hard to come by nowadays, especially since I no longer have any Bear fat, and I don't know anyone who has at this time...but I have used it lot over the years, because at one time it was "THE thing to do", if ya get my drift.
Plus...I have always wanted to get my hands on some Sperm Whale Oil, which has never happened.
I have been told DGW has had it, on occasion, but I have never seen it advertised, and I don't know anyone that works there.
We're supposed to be able to substitute Automatic Transmission Fluid for this, and I have read of a few doing just that, straight from the can.
If I were you, which I'm not, otherwise I would be owning "what you gots", but I would wait on some real Sperm Whale Oil to come my way...now, for myself, and my old "beater" guns, I do use ATF, I use it in Ed's Red, but as can seen by this thread, Ed's Red ain't for everybody, and that is just as it should be, IMHO.
Uncle Russ...
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I'm not one who loves to clean; it's like washing dishes after a large meal. I'd rather shoot! But cleaning HAS to be done and items such as WWF do just fine and are cheap and available all around. My motto is: "Water am good and cheap". :toast
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olive oil works ok too. pretty much any animal based oil or tallow that is free of salt works. Bear works great. The original Lehigh valley lube worked exceptionally well for me as did Ballistol.
I just got sick of buying "stuff."
Crisco used to be the thing. WD40 at one point was ok, then it became a "no-no" but now its approved. I use it currently and it works just fine and always did. Then there is the gajillion cottage industry recipes that are sold under a million different names that all work about the same. Everyone has their fave and will swear that it's better than the other stuff and will fight to the death to say its so.
I have used sperm oil, it worked fine but its no magic potion either. What works is a regular cleaning and oiling regimen. And avoiding too much rain or moisture or dramatic sudden temp changes.
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Russ,
You just reminded me how blessed I really am.
Back to "stuff" Automatic Transmission fluid, supposedly created for tank transmissions as a substitute for whale oil and olive oil known as sweet oil back in the day. Both work well for our applications. Fortunately, for us modern folks this whole black powder business ain't too complicated in the fact that so many different substances will work just fine to keep our smoke poles clean, rust free, and functioning well. Seems that just about anything we have handy will do the job. And that ain't much different than it's always been. Those old fellers back in the day, they had to use what they found handy too. And some of them even lived to tell the tale. ;)
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I'm not one who loves to clean; it's like washing dishes after a large meal. I'd rather shoot!
Totally agree. I learned the hard way if I want to hear a boom every time I pull that trigger, I must clean it properly.
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Matt Avance of TVM recommends ATF in their barrels. I have never tried it because I have other stuff easier to hand.
I agree with y'all. A person can get by with mostly whatever he finds at home to get the job done when it comes to muzzleloading. OR you can get into experimentation and fine tune your process to your heart's content! We all have a place in the choir it seems. yep yep. I think you could argue that the average colonial or frontiertrash, used whatever, and the local sharpshooter that won all the turkey shoots may have had a secret ingredient that brought home the bacon every time! So both ideas are probably documentable historically speaking.
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Yep, it's just a question of who, when, and where.
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I had a great friend who was big into buckskinning back in the day, before he died he gave me all his stuff. He used to say how great whale oil was for M/Ls, he had two small antique looking metal oilers about the size of a credit card in his tackle box. I suspect they have whale oil in them but don't know how to tell for sure.
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Well Eric,,, back before Prohibition on whale oil, it was the thing to use.
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Whale oil was primarily used for lanterns, candles etc... but it was not as inexpensive or available as animal tallow farther inland. The most expensive whale oil was Sperm oil that was more waxy. I have seen where it could be two and three times more expensive. I wonder how much of it was used for lubing gun barrels by the average frontier farmer or settler, or army? I wonder if bear oil or deer tallow was always the poor man's alternative? I have read where wax candles were precious on the frontier and tallow lamps were the local alternative? Maybe same for gun oils.
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I picked up two 8 ounce bottles of it back in 1975 or so. I think I paid about 5.95 for each. It's been so long I really don't remember what it was. Time passes and I came across them about 25 years after, still unused. It seems a few months ago I was going through a big box where I keep various stuff dealing with guns and I found one of them. Where did the other one go? Not a clue. But it is good to know that I have it. Will have to give it a try one of these decades. Until then, maybe it is like fine wine and will age to perfection? Or not.