Frizzen case hardening???

[AZ Longrifle]

I just bought an Indian Blunderbuss that has a really soft frizzen.
I was going to case harden it with carbon Casenite.
Is there any special instructions I need for this?
I'm a Metal Smith here in AZ. Gold, Silver, platinum, etc....

[Quartermaster James]

Shucks! I just saved the following instructions a few days ago, but not thinking of keeping them for anything but my own personal use I neglected to note where I found them. I think it was over at that other muzzleloading forum. I hope I am not stepping on any toes reposting them here. I'd give credit to the original author if I had saved that info.

Also, I have used Kasenit on an Indian frizzen myself, just following the directions from TOTW. I had nothing hotter than a MAPP torch, and it worked fine. These instructions, however, are more comprehensive.

=================================

This is the way I reharden frizzens.

I like to hold the pivot area in visegrips with the face of the frizzen up. Heat the back of the frizzen to a bright red and spoon on the Kasnit.


Wrapping a piece of stiff wire, (coat hangar wire works pretty well) through the pivot hole and around the tail works ok too. Using the wire makes it a little easier to quench without messing with the visegrips. Just drop the whole thing into the bucket.

Heating the wire makes it easier to bend, BTW.

Like 'ol Hoot said, the longer the part is heated in contact with Kasnite, the better. IMHO, 15 minutes is minimum. I prefer 20 minutes +, and spoon a little Kasnite over the face of the frizzen every few minutes.

Have your quench bucket right there where you can drop the part into it without allowing the part to cool. Those parts can cool below the hardening temp pretty quickly if you gotta spend time putzing around getting to the quench bucket.

Since that frizzen on that brand of lock is probably mild steel, quench in luke warm water followed by heating to 300-350 degrees in Moma's oven for an hour.

Clean off any scale or crud before putting that part in the oven.

Use an accurate over thermometer to determine the oven temp since the thermocouple in most home ovens isn't very accurate.

It wouldn't hurt to run the torch round the pivot, even though the visegrips act as a heat sink of sorts.

SLOWLY apply the heat to the pivot and let the colors run to a dark staw or a little more .

The part can be quenched in water to stop the colors from running. This will not reharden the part.

I prefer to slightly temper the frizzen because IMHO, many are too hard and since steel absorbs carbon, a thin section, such as the pivot area around the screw hole could concevably become high carbon steel through the full thickness of that area. It's not likely, but possible if the part is heated in a carbruizing environment for a long enough time.

That thin section could possibly break under the repeated stress of firing if not tempered a bit.

Heating for 20 minutes in Kasnite will probably harden to a depth of roughly .010-.015 max, but I prefer to temper a bit anyway.

I may be over thinking this process, but I would rather over think than break a part.

[BEAVERMAN]

or you could do it old school, see my post weekend at wally world! we case hardened stuff using the old school gunmakers recipe that was in the Journal of Historical Arms Technology, Volume 1, has a section on this process

[flintlock62]

I would do it just like quatermaster does except:  The first thing to do is polish out all the gouges so that the face is baby butt smooth.  Heat the frizzen on the back side, never on the face!  The vise grips act as a heat sink to keep the pivot part from hardening.  Don't put them on too tight though.  Propane will not heat it enough.  You need at least an oxy-mapp torch.  Heat it to a cherry red, NOT yellow hot.  Follow the rest of quartermaster's instructions.  Good shhoting!

If your dog thinks you are the best, do not go looking for second opinions.

Keep your powder dry,
David

[J.D.]

The first thing to do is polish out all the gouges so that the face is baby butt smooth.  

I wonder why everyone recommends removing the gouges in the face of the frizzen?

IMHO, all that needs to be removed are any burrs that might have risen, due to the gouging. IMHO, removing the gouges also removes what little case hardening is still there. Not to mention that the gouges give the flint some "bite" to produce hotter and more reliable sparks.

Many old, original guns had grooved frizzens that were supposed to produce more and hotter sparks when one's life was on the line. This type of grooved frizzen is usually seen on pistols used for self defense; where one's life hung in the balance.

So, why remove any existing gounges, when the frizzen will need to be broken in by scratching it up anyway?

Just kinda thinkin'...typin' out loud, so to speak...type

God bless

[cb]

JD - I agree in so far as vertical grooves but horizontal ones are another matter.
And yep coaching pistols, blunderbusses, and other period self defense guns often had vertically grooved frizzens.

[flintlock62]

I wonder why everyone recommends removing the gouges in the face of the frizzen?

IMHO, all that needs to be removed are any burrs that might have risen, due to the gouging. IMHO, removing the gouges also removes what little case hardening is still there. Not to mention that the gouges give the flint some "bite" to produce hotter and more reliable sparks.


So, why remove any existing gounges, when the frizzen will need to be broken in by scratching it up anyway?

JD - Let me explain it this way.  If there are gouges (going across the face), it is not hardened.  Gouges of this kind will catch the flint, causing it to chip and dull.  Scratches that go up and down the face (shallow one's) are what one is looking for.  This means the face of the frozzen is hard and that it is throwing off tiny white hot sparks into the powder pan.  Soft frizzens throw larger, cooler sparks, and fewer of them, making ignition of the prime charge more difficult.

A properly tuned flintlock is every bit as fast as a cap-lock.

[James Kelly]

Another thought. Before you fire that Indian piece, you might want to unbreech it & take a look at the threads.

In the early 1980's I looked at one brass barreled blunderbuss, imported from India by a most reputable outfit, one we all (myself included) hold in respect.
Turns out the importer had not been aware that the Indians
1. Used a fine pitch thread, which is a no-no in brass. One properly uses coarse thread when working with brass.
2. Had so little thread engagement that when the plug blew out, only the very tips of the threads were smeared over.
I was able to screw the thing back in by hand & it did rattle, quite a loose fit.
Fortunately it blew past the head of the guy who was shooting it with a 12ga shell full of black powder & a substantial newspaper wad.
I'm sure they've fixed the problem, but just in case someone forgot to mention this to current Indian gunmakers, you might want to check for yourself.

[LRB]

I would suggest that first, you see if will harden by a standard heat treat. If so, you don't need to CH it. I have a pistol from MVTC that is fine as is. It has no sign of being cased. If it is, and wears through, I will half sole it.

[J.D.]

JD - Let me explain it this way.  If there are gouges (going across the face), it is not hardened.  Gouges of this kind will catch the flint, causing it to chip and dull.  Scratches that go up and down the face (shallow one's) are what one is looking for.  This means the face of the frozzen is hard and that it is throwing off tiny white hot sparks into the powder pan.  Soft frizzens throw larger, cooler sparks, and fewer of them, making ignition of the prime charge more difficult.

A properly tuned flintlock is every bit as fast as a cap-lock.

In a moment of CRS, I didn't think of horizontal gouges, but vertical gouges. I have seen people who have ground vertical gouges/scratches from the face of a frizzen, for whatever reason. To only remove what ever case hardening their frizzens might have had. Then they complain that their frizzen has gone dead.

Horizontal gouges are a completely different story.

However, some folks seem to think their frizzens are supposed to be smooth as a babies behind.

Just kinda thinkin'...typin' out loud, so to speak...type.

God bless

Don't know how I ended up with a double post, and can't figure out how to delete this one.

Moderators please delete this post.

Thanks

[J.D.]

JD - Let me explain it this way.  If there are gouges (going across the face), it is not hardened.  Gouges of this kind will catch the flint, causing it to chip and dull.  Scratches that go up and down the face (shallow one's) are what one is looking for.  This means the face of the frozzen is hard and that it is throwing off tiny white hot sparks into the powder pan.  Soft frizzens throw larger, cooler sparks, and fewer of them, making ignition of the prime charge more difficult.

A properly tuned flintlock is every bit as fast as a cap-lock.

In a moment of CRS, I didn't think of horizontal gouges, but vertical gouges. I have seen people who have ground vertical gouges/scratches from the face of a frizzen, for whatever reason. To only remove what ever case hardening their frizzens might have had. Then they complain that their frizzen has gone dead.

Horizontal gouges are a completely different story.

However, some folks seem to think their frizzens are supposed to be smooth as a babies behind.

As to hardening any frizzen that has previously been case hardened, it will harden with no addition of case hardening compound. If carbon is already in place, then it will harden like any through hardening frizzen, however, that hardened case will wear through fairly quickly. IMHO, any foreign made lock has, in my experience, been made of case hardened mild steel.

I suggest case hardening that frizzen, and if you are afraid that it might be made of high carbon steel, just quench it in light oil. IMHO, it will harden either way. Adding carbon to the surface of a frizzen made of high carbon steel won't hurt it one bit. Might even make it spark better, just don't quench a frizzen made of high carbon steel in water.  

Just kinda thinkin'...typin' out loud, so to speak...type.

God bless