Non-Toxic Load Data Needed

[Swamp]

OK, I know this has been discussed before, but I just need a few quick responses for my question.

I have a .62 cal Tulle, and want to hunt ducks this fall. Now, if I plan on shooting steel, Bismuth, Heavyshot, or any other non-tox shot, do I need to use a shot cup of some sort? I did some reading in this section about using such shot, and protecting the bore, and yadda yadda yadda. Are these required to shoot non-toxic shot in my smoothbore? Thanks.

[Buzzard]

My understanding is you only need cups for steel, all others should be OK. Although, cups may tighten your patterns for all types of shot.

[Choupic]

Swamp, I'm glad you asked this question cause I've been planning on doing the same thing. My plan was to use something like bismuth - no steel. From what I gathered with the other non-toxic shot you didn't need a cup which fit my liking anyway. Good luck this season!

[Captchee]

IMO a shotcup is only needed to protect the bore against  steel  and some heavy shot . not for Bismuth

[Gordon H.Kemp]

I've tried to do a little research on wether or not some of the non-toxic shot can safly be used without a "cushion" of some kind between the shot and the bore , so far it appears that any shot material other then "near pure lead , can , and will cause barrel erosion  near the muzzle  . At this point , in time the Mfgs. havn't succeeded in duplicating  the "flexibility" of lead shot ! If I'm forced into using the "non-toxic" shot I'll use a shot cup !

[Swamp]

Gordon, not trying to stir anything here, but if the bore dia is the same from the muzzle to the breech, why would it just affect the muzzle end? My Tulle is not choked, and from my understanding, is open cyl.

Is there some taper in these smoothbore barrels if not purposely choked?

I just want to be safe and not hurt my barrel in any fashion.

Many thanks for the input here Gentelmen!

[Gordon H.Kemp]

Swamp , don't worry about "stirring" somthing up , to me , it has a tendency to get more ideas out on the subject at hand , and thats a "good" thing! !    The idea of "lead" shot  causyng the distruction to water fowl and the enviroment is based in much data that has "not" been proven and/or taken out of context to suit the purpose of those people and groups that would abolish hunting entirely . If you were to do an in-depth investagfation into the damage done by hunters using "lead" shot and the dambage done by the failure of oil corp. that fail to contain there Prodct transportation , What damage done by hunters amounts to a drop-in-the-bucket. In fact the good being done by the hunting communiyy more than offsets the damage done .
         So get your hands on the "stirring" stick , and have at it!!!! :salute

[mark davidson]

Bismuth in my experience with regular shotguns kills no better than steel. Heavy shot on the other hand is pure poison, maybe even better than pure lead! For tighter patterns for ducks, I would use a shotcup unless somehow it makes you feel "non-traditional" and then you will have to either risk your bore or your feelings. Gotta be your call. :-)

[biliff]

FWIW most non-toxic shot is hard stuff an will score your bore if you don't use a shotcup.

Believe the exceptions are bismuth and ITX, there may be others.

At muzzleloader velocities I've found hevi-shot works well since its more dense than lead. 6's work well for ducks and pheasant at the ranges we tend to shoot. You need to load it with a shot cup meant for steel shot. I usually add a fiber wad under the shotcup, seems to seal the bore better than just the shotcup and keeps the plastic from melting.

Hevi-shot ain't cheap though, but most of the substitutes tend to be pricey.

[Swamp]

I found this online:

While it's sinfully expensive, bismuth shot has some great qualities. It's an alloy of 97 percent bismuth and three percent tin. When examined, it looks like little silver ball bearings. Bismuth has a specific gravity of 9.7, which is midway between lead at 11.3 and iron (steel shot) at 7.

Being denser than equivalently sized steel shot, bismuth retains more energy as range increases. With hard lead shot having a Brinell hardness of 11, bismuth measures about 18 while steel shot registers approximately 110. Being relatively soft and malleable, bismuth can be safely fired in "presteel shot" barrels and chokes.

This is perhaps bismuth's most endearing quality -- permitting us to continue to shoot our Foxs, Parkers, L.C. Smiths, Brownings, Winchesters, Remingtons and other fine shotguns without concern and in full compliance with nontoxic shot regulations.

If there is a downside -- other than cost -- it is that bismuth shot is somewhat brittle. This has lead to the development of two different schools of thought when it comes to handloading bismuth.

Ballistic Products, Inc., which markets bismuth shot to handloaders, recommends adding a bismuth-specific buffer to the shot column and adding a felt or cork cushioning wad to a long-bodied shotcup wad. Their idea is to protect the bismuth shot as much as possible during initial setback and during its journey down the bore.

[Choupic]

Thanks Captchee, I thought the same about the bismuth. From what I've read and heard in the past something like bismuth is the way to go when shooting the presteel type barrels or muzzleloaders which makes me happy , I just didn't like the idea of the shotcup ( also don't like the idea of messin up my barrel either) but I'd take the lesser of the 2 evils if'n it came down to it.

[Captchee]

Thanks Captchee, I thought the same about the bismuth. From what I've read and heard in the past something like bismuth is the way to go when shooting the presteel type barrels or muzzleloaders which makes me happy , I just didn't like the idea of the shotcup ( also don't like the idea of messin up my barrel either) but I'd take the lesser of the 2 evils if'n it came down to it.

  in my old SXS "BL"  i  do not and will not use steel or heavy shot .
 many of them are 100-130 years old and still in good condition  and i want to keep them that way while at the same time enjoying a hunt now and then with them  .
  As such I do not shoot steel or heavy shot  and I allways use a shot cup  , even with lead .
 IMO in the muzzleloaders  the cup is not needed  for anything other then to protect the bore from the modern shot .
Bismuth is the way to go . Sadly its expensive . But just like lead . Alittle goes along ways . So what I do is buy a box or two of  12 gage shotgun shells .
 I remover the shot , dump the powder and give the  primed hulls to  my friends who  re load .
 In the end it probably costs more then if I just bought a jug of bismuth . But it gives me all the shot I need for  the little water fowl shooting I do

[Osprey]

The idea of "lead" shot  causyng the distruction to water fowl and the enviroment is based in much data that has "not" been proven and/or taken out of context to suit the purpose of those people and groups that would abolish hunting entirely .

Totally off base, as least as far as waterfowl.  The impacts of lead on ducks and geese is well researched and documented, primarily concerning lead poisoning from pellets ingested on feeding areas that receive heavy gunning pressure.  And while recent attempts at lead bans have been brought by anti-hunting groups, the switch to steel and other non-tox for waterfowl was pushed by waterfowl biologists and hunters concerned about the resource - long before the antis jumped in the fray.  To just shrug off the damage as a drop in the bucket when there are cheap and readily available alternatives is pretty irresponsible.

As far as one type versus another, if you're only going a few times a season get the high dollar stuff and have fun, but it you're going to be a serious waterfowler and don't have the bank of a DC lobbyist, ya gotta shoot steel.  I've averaged 3 cases of shells a season for the last 25 years on ducks and geese, mainly steel, cause I'd be broke if I shot tungsten, bismuth or that stuff.  This will be my first season playing with the flinter for fowl, but I'll be shooting steel BB's with plastic cups.  And I have no doubt the birds will be dead if I connect.

Which leads to the most important thing I've learned trying different shells and watching other guys shoot them.  When the birds come in, no matter what you're shooting, ya still gotta hit 'em!  

[Gordon H.Kemp]

Osprey , first, let me say , I welcome your iinput even if I disagree with most of it !  The expression of different view points seems to cause more folks to deeper thought , and helps to bring out greater amount of information .
        As to my being "irresponsibile" If I failed to respond to your comments indicating that because a "biologist" or  other person with a degree claims a point , it must be true . Over the years I have been involved in several contraverseys of envirmental nature . Without exception , the groups or agencys brought "proof" in the form of opinioons from individuals having degrees in subjects pertainiing to the contraversy .
        Because someone is educated in a subject , dosn't mean they are honest and trustworthy . This is proven out rvery day by the actions of those who are supposed to be our rep. in goverment .
        I won't , at this time go into details of the "incidents" I have been involved in but if you  , or anyone would like to discuss this more indepth , please call me  and I'll be glad to converse with you !
     (432) 467 2124      after 8pm edt is best