What is the difference?

[FlintSteel]

Can someone logically explain why?

Everyone says that this or that lube won't work in thier rifle. Since we all use barrels from only a few manufacturers, we all use black powder and patched round balls, where are all the variables coming from. Example: isn't a 44", 50 cal Rice barrel loaded with 80 grains of 3f Goex, a .490" round ball and a .020" patch the same as another Rice barrel set up the same way. Yet 2 different shooters with virtually identical rifles in every way claim that thier rifle shoots better with another strange lube concoction? Where do the variables come in and what exactly are they?

I think it's actually the perception of the individual shooter. If he is having a good day at the range and tries something new then he attributes his new success to the new product, not that his shooting has improved. I also think that a huge percentage of a shooters ability (aside from practice) has to do with self confidence.

Just my 2 cents.

[Swamp]

FS,
Remember, every barrel is a different animal, even when they come from the same maker. This is true for muzzleloader barrels, as well as modern centerfire barrels. You have to shoot a bunch of different ball, patch, powder, and lube combinations in order to find what "YOUR" rifle likes to eat.

[rickevans]

In a precise, controled and measurable environment the barrels would probably act much more similar and provide much the same end result. However, think on all of the variables one throws into the mix when the barrel is placed into a stock, along with the lock geometry, trigger mechanism, powder, ball and patching...and loading process. Add...a lot of individual superstition, tradition and personal beliefs and you have plenty of topic choice for the evening campfire.

[Loyalist Dave]

It's not just the barrels, but barrels do vary.  Swamped barrels are milled on the outside after being drilled, and the variation in thickness and exactly where the "taper" is, could change the barrel whip when fired.  Internal milling, was your barrel the first one cut with a brand new cutting tool, or the last one before they switched to a new, sharper cutter?  

Then there is the powder, even if you only shot BP, you are talking GOEX, SWISS, DIAMONDBACK, and home-made (maybe I missed a brand or two).  What they use for chemical sources, and the type of wood used for the charcoal, supposedly changes the characteristics, even if they used exactly the same formula.

Patching material is from cloth, for sewing, garments, upolstery, not for gun patches, so no real control over the differences in thickness, and then some folks wash and dry before use, some use it right off the bolt.

Add to that, some folks might lay in several years worth of powder and patching material, say five yards of patch, five pounds of BP, all from the same lots.  So they get very consistent results, while the other fellows might buy a pound of powder, a year, differing makers each year, so really change up the shooting variables on a regular basis.

LD

[david32cal]

Can someone logically explain why?

Everyone says that this or that lube won't work in thier rifle. Since we all use barrels from only a few manufacturers, we all use black powder and patched round balls, where are all the variables coming from. Example: isn't a 44", 50 cal Rice barrel loaded with 80 grains of 3f Goex, a .490" round ball and a .020" patch the same as another Rice barrel set up the same way. Yet 2 different shooters with virtually identical rifles in every way claim that thier rifle shoots better with another strange lube concoction? Where do the variables come in and what exactly are they?

I think it's actually the perception of the individual shooter. If he is having a good day at the range and tries something new then he attributes his new success to the new product, not that his shooting has improved. I also think that a huge percentage of a shooters ability (aside from practice) has to do with self confidence.

Just my 2 cents.

i agree,i have tryed different lubes in all my rifles,mink oil,Hoope's,Crisco,Wonder Lube and a plethora of home made concoctions, and although i prefer to use mink oil or Hoope's,i dont see that any one improves the rifles performance over another. patch material causes for more variance in performance than what they are lubed with. know you and your weapons abilities and you will shoot consistently.

[Gordon H.Kemp]

I would have to agree with you that the difference in lubes is more of the perception of the shooter rather then an actual mechanical difference . "But" there is little doubt that , as was said , the clmate in wich we usually shoot our guns can ,and does make some difference in the performance of the componets of the preffered load , powder , patch lube , and projectile. , condition of bore , make and type of cap , etc.
      If super accy. is being sought , then these items DO make some effect on the final performance. For those that are satisfied with  repeatable ,but not pin-point accy. these things may not be as critical.  I,ve used many different lubes and have had good performance from most. I would have to say that "crisco" and a little spit has worked as well for me as any of the boughton lubes.
          And remember if everyone agreed on the same components, there would be little to discuss on our forums.

   Main point is to enjoy our journey into the historical and mechanical aspects of the traditional Black-Powder weapons and share it with others.    Just my take , yours may vary.


                   :USA

[prairie dog]

It's because no two rifle barrels are exactly the same.  Variables exist in harmonics, bore dimensions, bedding, and how smooth or rough the bore may be.

I have few rifles both center fire and muzzle-loading that shoot well with any load.  Those are rare jewels.  Most of my rifles shoot most loads fairly well but really shine with one or two particular loads.  Then I have those few that group exceptionally well with one load and only that one load.  

My experience leads me to believe harmonics is the variable that makes the difference.  Finding the load that has the bullet leaving the muzzle at exactly the same point in it's "node" for each and every shot is key to the bullet striking the same point on the target every time.

 I think it's actually the perception of the individual shooter. If he is having a good day at the range and tries something new then he attributes his new success to the new product, not that his shooting has improved. I also think that a huge percentage of a shooters ability (aside from practice) has to do with self confidence.

There is a lot of that; the greatest variable of all is the nut on the trigger.  I would tend to agree that the average rifle is capable of shooting better than the average  shooter.  However, I've found that no two rifle barrels are the same and what works in one won't necessarily work in another. Some times one variable makes a huge difference.

[dennyhawk]

I figure it's kind like two exact automobiles, comming off the same assembly line, on the same day, built by the same people, using the same tooling...they'll both be different, and run different, with a different set of problems...one of em likes one particular grade of gas & oil, while the other runs best using something something different.

[FlintSteel]

I figure it's kind like two exact automobiles, comming off the same assembly line, on the same day, built by the same people, using the same tooling...they'll both be different, and run different, with a different set of problems...one of em likes one particular grade of gas & oil, while the other runs best using something something different.

I don't think that automobiles and muzzleloaders are a fair comparison. Automobiles are much more complex than a muzzleloader.  :rotf
I still maintain that the main difference is the machine pulling the trigger. Some days you got it, some days you don't. On the days you "got it" if you did something different then that was the solution for the rest of your life. Shooters are more supperstitious than golfers, If you get my drift. I have parts for a new rifle to add to my personal collection (that will make 2, you could call that a collection) and it will have a lighter weight barrel. When that rifle is ready to shoot I will surley be looking to see if there is a difference in how it shoots.  

[dennyhawk]

My point is...NOTHING that is manufactured, be it guns, toys,automobiles etc. is ever exactly alike...ever...too many variables.

[Kermit]

Differences anywhere and everywhere. This discussion of variables could just as easily take place on a forum for cowboy action shooters, BPCR shooters, schuetzen shooters, or benchrest shooters. But maybe not oyster shooters.

[Hanshi]

No two barrels are identical.  I discovered this back in my CF days.  I also found there is such things as "slow" barrels and "fast" barrels.

[Sir Michael]

I have seen many cases of the same model & cal. factory made rifles where two different users use different powder charges, powder grain sizes, ball sizes and patch thicknesses and material to achieve comparable levels of accuracy.  I have also seen "identical" factory guns shot by users that do everything the same but use drastically different volumes of powder to achieve the same result.  Since "factory made" rifles are as close to identical as a person can get I've come to the following conclusions.

1 - Every individual has a different belief in what constitutes best accuracy
2 - There is no "right or correct" load (ball, powder grade or volume, patch, and lube)
3 - Any discussion about what is the best or correct load can and should only provide the questioner with a starting point for working up their "best/correct" load.

Another point I think needs to be mentioned is that as a rule of thumb, every rifle has at least two different powder volumes with all else being kept the same that will produce the maximum consistency in ball impact i.e. tightest group.  This is the result of interaction between the harmonic characteristics of the barrel and the shock wave characteristics of burning powder.  The only way to find these two loads is to experiment.  First to fine an optimal load and then to find one or more other powder volumes that produce the same or close to the same result.

More powder is not necessarily better.