Help - Jaeger ? accuracy beyond 50 yds.

[j-houser]

I have spent a lot of time trying to get this rifle to shoot but it feels like I am re inventing the wheel. Does anyone know how they got these rifles to shoot, or  know anyone I can contact who might know.

I have a 1850-60 Swiss Jaeger percussion rifle that I have spent a lot of time trying to get it to perform to the degree that it was designed for. Specs. are - excellent condition with 28" heavy swamped bbl tight last 2 1/2 ", 1 in 42 twist, .600 bore and 14 - .012 deep round bottom rifling.

I first made a conical ball mold, Maxie Ball style 498 gr. Used 70 gr black powder and it would not group at 75 yds. ( the mold may have been off a few thousands.) The gun also shoot 15 inches high at 50 yds at the bottom adjustment with a additional 1 inch of elevation remaining on the rear sight. I took this that the rifle was for long range and the Swiss probably knew how to get the best performance at the time.

I then purchased a Jeff Tanner .590 rb ball mold, used .014 denim and .015 ticking with 70gr. black and it shoot a impressive  one hole - 7 shots group at 30 yds. Moved out to 75 yards and it went to a 10 in. group . (I have seen this compound progressive angle of deflection in other rifles past 50 yds. Why, or Is this normal??) I found some of the patching that were roughed or cut some with what I think was blow by due to patch thickness not felling the space. The total empty space from the ball to the bottom of the rife-lings is .034. I perceived that my patch thickness of .014 X 2gave me .028 and the ticking at .015 X 2 at .030. Any understanding on this is appreciated.

I read Ned Roberts book and it had a lot of very good info on many areas.He covered American rifles wonderfully, However, it did not seam to directly address the combination of Swiss specs. The twist seams to say conical bullet and the deep rifling would be rb. that I am dealing with to the degree that I could personally solve my problem.

I am at a cross road where I do not know whither to purchase a .585 or smaller mold to allow for thicker patching for less blow by, make another conical bullet mold to better specs using Ned's information, or adjust the powder and try to tune the charge for long range.

Thanks very much for your valuable time. If this works out, I will gladly become a member.

[j-houser]

CORRECTION
The patches were not actually cut but, but scuffed or tattered. About one in two patches were tattered all the way through in some places.

[rollingb]

First let me say,... that I've never owned, shot, or worked up a load for a barrel like you've described.
But here are a few of my thoughts so far,.....
The rifling sounds a "little too fast" for roundball,.... and "way too slow" for conical.
I would "think" a .590-.585 roundball would be a good starting point for any .600 rifled bore with a "40+ inch twist".
All my "denim" patch material mikes closer to .028"-.029" than what you have at .014".
I'm also having trouble wrapping my mind around a load that shoots one hole (7 shot) roundball groups at 30 yards,... but opens up to a 10" group at 75 yards, I didn't even realize such a thing as that was possible.  :? )

[sse]

CORRECTION
The patches were not actually cut but, but scuffed or tattered. About one in two patches were tattered all the way through in some places.

It would be interesting to see pics of the patches...

[Buzzard]

J;In my mind, a 590prb w/70gr-2fg out of a 1:42 twist is only a "bit" fast! I'd try 50gr-2fg and see what happens. As with all projectiles, Revolutions per second, is a key. That's why FPS and Twist, must be balanced. But it does have a rather broad range. Yes RB, most "denim" mic's out at .028ish.  The "one hole at 30yd and 10" at 75yds is usually caused by; eye sight, a broad front sight blade, wide rear sight notch, or a poorly stabilized projectile. Does this barrel really have 14 lands and 15 grooves?  At these charge weights, blow-by will not be an issue, assuming proper patch thickness. With the patch thickness's you describe, it seems your 590's are rather small. Your patch thickness should not exceed .015. This isn't rocket science, we'll git'er figured out shortly.

[Uncle Russ]

Does this barrel really have 14 lands and 15 grooves?

My thoughts exactly, Buzzard

That particular number of lands & grooves is more in line with a Marlin Micro-Groove than any muzzleloader I have personally seen in the past.
But, that does not mean someone didn't put one together.

That rate of twist for a .600 has me thinking someone wanted to shoot conicals, big heavy conicals, but it should handle a round ball with a reduced powder charge...I think that 50gr or so, as mentioned previously, might be a good starting point, and don't be surprised if you have to go even  lower.
(In my 3 band .58 cal, 1861 Colt with 1:72 progressive rifling the most accurate load is 43.0gr FFFg using pure lead.)

Insofar as changing point of impact from 30 to 75 yds, my best guess would be a rear site notch that is to wide allowing to much 'light", or windage, around the front blade.

I think "J" is on the right track by getting a mould from Jeff Tanner, with that rate of twist and that number of grooves, he might also want to bump-up his BHN on his alloy to 10 / 11 or maybe even 12, that denim patch may be a wee bit harder to load, but it may also prove to be very helpful in grouping.

Uncle Russ...

[j-houser]

Apologise for not getting back sooner but been very busy and thinks for al the information. Please overlook any of my concepts due to my inexperience.  

At .014 (.015 ticking) patch and bore butter , the load is tight enough that it takes a firm palm impact a few times to get past the first two inches of muzzle until it gets easy. Not sure how much thicker I can go?? I thought it would be good to go thicker to  fill up the rifling better if feasible.

As for the 7 shot, one hole group off of sandbags probably had some, luck but .60 size helped out a lot. I am fortunate to also have a .45 to hunt with that will shoot that tight. Both rifles loose the 30 yard  minute of angle and go out to 7 to 10 in at  75 yards. I have not found the time to work up a longer range load but this may be the answer. I use to shoot competitively with  open sights but my eyes were much better then. I did open up the back sight notch some to allow more light in on the Jaeger. However, I thought that visually the minute of angle at 30 would carry out to 75  if the ball stayed stable for 75

As for the patches, I did not keep them. I perceived that the frayed or tattering that wore through the patch in some areas, was not in the area of the rifling imprint on the patch but in the area where the patch did not fill up the rifling. To get .014 patch material, I used denim that was for 2 year olds that might not have been the same quality. Wish I could give you more.

Dropping down to 50gr for accuracy but sacrificing range estimation some sounds much better than a flatter trajectory with less accuracy. Does the 10/11 alloy keep the ball from being deformed at loading over pure lead. I purchased pure lead for the maxie  style conical I made and used the same lead for the Tanner rb mold.

My time is tight so I probably fine one day to try getting this rifle to shoot out past 50 with confidence for hunting this year. So far, I perceive that the advice is to give up on the flatter trajectory and conical,  may be order another mold at .585 for the deep rifling, drop the charges to around 50 gr, go to a harder alloy and work out a accuracy load.

Any other information, references or suggestion will be much appreciated.

[Bob Smalser]

Before country gunsmiths fully understood that patched balls required slow rates of twist, the rule of thumb in German-speaking countries was one turn in the barrel length.  This fast twist required small powder charges, otherwise the patch strips and accuracy is lost.



This ca 1780-1800 62 caliber bore is one turn in 27 inches yet predates conical bullets by decades.  It took half the normal powder charge and extremely tight patching just to get it on paper.  However the initial results are impressive.

Below is 100yd target and patches from 60 grains of FFG, a .580 ball and two .010 lubed patches.  You can see the difference between the inner and outer patches, and even with this light load, the impact on target and attendant recoil with a 6lb gun were impressive.  I'm not done and haven't chronographed this yet, but with your gun I'd try reducing the charge and tightening the patch.



viewtopic.php?f=76&t=18933&view=unread#unread

[j-houser]

Thanks for the information. Looks like I need to follow your approach. The outside patch looks like some of my single patch. Very good group. However what is the average group. It is looking like I will go your way. I still am hung up on larger dia. bullets like the 60 needs to turn slower than a 36 would which to me says that the rifle may have been designed for conical bullets??? Trying to find someone in Europe that may knows the answer but am having no luck at this point. Does any one know anyone across the water that may know . Cant get any infor from Tanner.