Cool Priming Powder Experiment

[Loyalist Dave]

First, some of what we are taught from "way back when" is bastardized in our modern world.  When you get something like, "tilt the lock a bit down and away from the barrel to get faster ingnition", and we find that wrong, the question should be "why did they think that?".  The experiment is with very pricise testing equipment, NOT with an actual lock on an actual gun barrel, SO perhaps that bit of advise was from a time when the touch hole would easily have been plugged by the priming powder jostling around inside the pan, under the closed frizzen, as the shooter or hunter walked around, and it would pile up against and covering the touch hole???

As for it mattering..., well his test only shows what happens between the pan ignition and the ignition of the powder in the chamber.  The bullet doesn't exit in .032 seconds.  The charge merely begins its work in .032 seconds.  The next question might be..., how much time delay before the bullet begins to move from its resting position...., add that to the .032 seconds, and THEN..... how long before the bullet exits the muzzle..., giving you total time from flash to exit, which then would tell you how much lag time for human error to cause a change in point of aim.

Is it possible that part of the reason the patched round ball is often more accurate than its heavier, conical cousin, because the lower mass of the patched round ball makes the ball to begin moving sooner, so lowers the time required to exit the barrel, and lessens the time for human error to effect the aim of the barrel??

LD

[Captchee]

well  a couple things here .
 there are alot of variables that  have not been considered .
 notice his flash hole . its very large . Even though he says it’s a chambers liner , I have never gotten one of jims that was that large .
 this gives a very quick ignition .
However , this also reduces barrel pressures  which results in  lower muzzle velocities .
 With this  large a flash hole . A prime close to the hole would produce a fast ignition because there is  less  resistance for the  flash to get a direct line to the main charge .
 The other issue I have with this test is his ignition source .
 While IMO it would be true that  the sparks from a flint may be a lot higher in temp then his hot wire , his hot wire has  1000 times the  area of heat source .
 This his flash powders pressure spike   faster as more powder is initially incinerated.
Thus IMO the temperature of his hot wire  is also having an effect on the ignition  .
 What he is  doing is saying  when heating the wire , ahhhhh , that looks good .
 But in effect what is happening is there  is most likely 100’s of degrees of variance in his source of ignition . Which is effecting the burn rate of the flash powder
 To get an accurate compression he should be using the full lock ignition

 The other issue that I notice right off  is that   that the effects of the  frizzen are not taken into account .
 See the lid of the frizzen when open , creates a fence .
 Now without the frizzen the only fence he haze is the  rear fence from the Manton lock plate  and the barrel wall itself .
 Take note of the  powder burns on the lock  plate . These are all forward . Something you don’t really see a lot of on a working lock .
Why ?
Well pretty simple really . Because as the frizzen opens , the lid creates a another fence . So now what you have is a   3 sides box .
 When the  flash powder ignites , the main source of pressure is then forced away from the flash hole face , just as a shape charge does  .
 When the flash powder  is placed to the outside of the pan , the pressure from ignition spreads both in  towards the flash hole , as well as out away from the lock .
 This  has an effect  when dealing with a smaller flash hole .
 .
 As to old myths . If you read many of Manton  as well a  those written by Nock  what you find is that
  Their thoughts were not that the placement of the  pan powder  was crucial . What was crucial was that no powder cover the flash hole  or be aloud to enter the flash hole .
Also that the flash hole should be placed high enough so as to   make the best  use of the  angle of the ignition  which is like a V
 This was the basis for the gates  on self priming locks .
 As the frizzen opened   this gate cleared  the prime away from the flash hole , which was very  big so as to alow some of the powder from the main charge to actually load the pan . It also served to allow more area for the   ignition source to enter into the main charge

 I would also point out that  the whole base for a liner is to move the flash closer  to the main charge . The further away that  flash charge , the slower the ignition will be  if in nothing more  but distance needed to travel .
 This is also why  a properly drilled  flash hole “without a liner “ were often  cherried from the inside  so as to  reduce barrel thickness  and give less distance for the flash to travel  to the main charge .


 now  ill tell you what i find in actual  20+ years of actual flintlock shooting  with real locks , using actual ignition sources , outside of a controled enviorment .

  a very large % of the time , when folks are having ignition problems . those problems directly relate to
1)  poor lock performance
2) poor flash hole placement  and hole size
3)  placement of the powder in the pan .

 remember we aren’t just talking about whats faster here , which is why IMO why this fella even listened to Bill Knight .

 but its an issue of reliability and is why Knight doesnt make  flinlocks . he couldnt get them to work  cosistantly in the 1970  and i doubt he has figured out how to do that now .

As others have said , do what works for you . But if things aren’t working  then  you need to find out what your doing wrong  and remember faster isn’t always better

[Kermit]

I was just startin' to wonder about LOCK time. That element doesn't even enter this picture. Of course, he wasn't testing that. He actually did a pretty fair job of isolating just ONE aspect of the overall operation of a piece.

There is SO much to consider with a flintlock!

Dave raises the gnarly question of barrel length. Just for fun, is a shorter barrel more accurate because the ball exits the barrel faster, or is that offset by a longer sight radius and steadier hold (maybe) of a longer barrel?

Dang. Maybe I'll just keep on shootin' and learnin' and enjoying this strange game--and not lose much sleep over the fine scientific points. Still interesting stuff though.

[Gordon H.Kemp]

Capt. great take on this subject! As others here have said, this is a point to be discussed, but shouldn,t cause us to worry about the point. I feel that over the many years that the flintlock was the prime source of ignition ,many things were tried to perfect the time of prime ignition to main charge ignition. The old timmers didn;t  need to have modern test equipment to know if they had improved ignition time, the proof  was obvious.

[Sir Michael]

Like may pieces of machinery Flint Lock weapons each have a personality.  What determines the personality of each weapon is the sum of the vast array of distances, dimensions, and mechanical structures that make up each stock, lock, trigger, and barrel.  No two are exactly the same including the mass produced factory weapons.  As a result, shooting a Flint Lock is as much art as it is science.  

The one thing this test didn't evaluate was the use of typical priming charge volumes and the effects of banking them up against the touch hole in a way that completely covers the hole.  His use of 3/4 of a grain which is way less than most folks use is in my mind a rather academic exercise that demonstrates nothing of value.
   

[Loyalist Dave]

One final thought...., Captchee pointed it out..., personal experience.  From a tight position on a bench with sandbags my rifle shoots very tight groups, ..., which I can't duplicate off hand, so when taking a deer I choose a position that allows me the most steady hold that I may obtain.  So far so good, 3 for 3.

Not only is the lock in question, so is the ability of the shooter.

LD