A question about powder

[sparkshooter308]

I got a three part question. What is the difference between sporting grade (rifle) powder and fireworks grade powder? How do the different grades (granulations) relate between both, and can you use fireworks grade in firearms? Thanks

[melsdad]

Welcome spark shooter! What took ya' nearly 4 years to make your first post?

I may be able to answer part of your question. I believe firework powder is a larger granulation than a powder you would use in your rifle. So I would say no don't use it in your rifle or smoothy. I think I read somewhere that there may also be a different composition in the firework powder that would be more corrosive to your bore.

[Uncle Russ]

Welcome Spark Shooter.

A very good question. You are going to get several short answers, but I will try to give you a somewhat long answer as perceived by many of us old timers, and taught to us by Bill Knight, better know as  the "Mad Monk".

"Sporting Grade powder" typically relates to powder that is between  Cannon Grade, and Fireworks Grade,and designated as  Fg, FFg, FFFg, and FFFFg.

Canon grade being the coarsest and Fireworks being the finest.

Also, "Sporting Grade" powder is typically followed by the letter "g"... One very common myth is that the small letter "g" behind the grain size designation indicates that the powder has been graphite coated. The small letter "g" actually stands for glazed powder. Glazing and graphite coating are two entirely different things, but you will find them both used in the manufacturer of  Black Powder.

When glazed grains of black powder, lacking a graphite coating, are stored for any length of time the mass of grains will begin to clump together.
The surfaces of the grains are covered in a thin skin of potassium nitrate and charcoal minerals, these are crystalline materials and will behave as all crystalline materials do. When surfaces of the same salt come in contact with even slight mounts of pressure the grains will begin to fuse, or bond, together.
Graphite coatings on the grains act as an “anti-blocking” agent, preventing the grain surfaces from fusing, clumping, or bonding, together.

Sporting Grade powder is "screened" to determine the size, or the number of "F's", as we describe modern Sporting Powder nowadays.
The grain sizing system used in the United States today, was first introduced around 1836 as a means of standardizing grain sizing within the industry.
These sizes were not universally accepted or adhered to until very late in the 19th century. Because of this, we read of the Black Powder used by our forefathers as collectively being of a "Sporting Grade" type.
Under this standard sizing which is the current practice:

Fg........Must pass through 14 mesh... Must be retained on16 mesh
FFg.......Must pass through 16 mesh... Must be retained on24 mesh
FFFg.....Must pass through 24 mesh... Must be retained on46 mesh
FFFFg....Must pass through 46 mesh... Must be retained on 60 mesh

The exception to this is "Swiss" Powder.
Under the Swiss grading of powder, the size will look something like this.
U.S............ Swiss.......... Rough conversion to U.S. Standard Screens.
FFFFg..... #1 powder.... 32 mesh to 60 mesh
FFFg....... #2 powder.... 18 mesh to 32 mesh
FFg......... #3 powder.... 12 mesh to 24 mesh
1.5Fg...... #4 powder... 12 mesh to 18 mesh
Fg........... #5 powder... 10 mesh to 14 mesh

It should be pointed out that very small differences in grain sizing does not become significant until one gets into the very fast and very hot burning sporting type powders....FFFg and FFFFg.

As a rule, Firecracker Powder would be upwards of FFFFFFFF or FFFFFFFFFF insofar as any kind of grading or screening system might be concerned. In other words, it is simply to "fine" for anything but fireworks and its "over-use" could result in a explosive effect.
I have heard of guys using it as a fast priming powder, but I don't know this actually happened. I think I would be afraid to use it in any fashion.

Uncle Russ...

[Sir Michael]

The principle difference between fireworks powder and sporting grade, gun, or black powder is that fireworks powders use chlorates for the oxidizer as opposed to nitrates that are used for black powder.

The fireworks powders use frequently use chlorates or perchlorates for oxidizers rather than nitrates because they produce heats during burning of 1700-2000 degrees C which is much hotter than that produced by nitrates.  Although those made by Goex and Schuetzen are made with potassium nitrate.

The following illustrates the size of each granulation.  

1Fg (No. 5)............1.2 - 1.6 mm
2Fg (No. 3)............0.67 - 1.36 mm
3Fg (No. 2)............0.508 - 0.87 mm
4Fg (No. 1)............0.226 - 0.508 mm


1FA.........................................5.7- 4 mm
2FA.........................................4.8- 1.7mm
3FA.........................................2 - 1.2 mm
4FA.........................................1.7 - 0.840 mm
5FA.........................................0.840 - 0.297 mm
6FA.........................................0.595 - 0.297 mm    
7FA.........................................0.420 - 0.149 mm
Meal D..................................<0.420 mm
Fine Meal/Flour......................<0.149 mm
Extra Fine Meal/Flour..............<0.105 mm


Gunpowder is designated with a "g" following the size of the granulation originally indicated that the powder was glazed with graphite.  Today it means that the powder is a Sporting Grade and has been polished or glazed with graphite.  The "A" following the granulation of the fireworks powder indicates that it is fireworks powder and is a Blasting Grade  I have also found references that indicate that "A" powders indicates the powder contains potassium nitrate as the oxidizer, in contrast to so called "B" blasting powders using sodium nitrate.  

I hope this isn't too convoluted.  

[sparkshooter308]

Thanks for all the info guys I figure there may be a lot of folks out there that think that blackpowder is blackpowder and like myself did not know weather or not  I could shoot it in firearms. Once again thanks for the info.

[shootrj2003]

May I say somethin' about fireworks powder?and I thank my lucky stars this turned out humorous but really  sobered me up at the time!I was in the Marines in the early 70's and hangin' out with a couple of buddy's at the one guys off base trailer near J-ville,N.C.He was in 2nd recon we were in 2nd mar. inf and he had one of those toy muzzle loaders that shot a cork ball using a cap for powder[ya can't get them any more]Well we had been working on a case of beer and, were bored with fire crackers[blackcats] laying aroung.I was struck by how realistic the gun worked so I came up with the idea to load up a few pinches of the powder from the firecrackers and put a loaddown the barrel,well I aimed at my buddy's   boot covered foot and at the last instant decided to take it outside and shoot the trailer door instead-BOOM-the gun worked just as well as me and the other guy did not think it would it put the 40 caliber cork ball into a real deep dent in that door! thank god I took it outside and on hind sight what was I thinking?Beer and guns,even toy ones  don't mix we laughed,being Marines,drunk and 10 foot tall and ullet proof young men that we were but it could have been tragically different.!-Oh-the barrel split too!

[Gordon H.Kemp]

Unc. Russ and Sir M. thanks for posting a difinitive break down of powder discriptions . Some whwere I have the Mad Monk"s findings I downloaded quite some time ago ?
        You need to pay close attention to what Unc. Russ says , as He was present when Bacon wrote down the formula :lol:  

[Roaddog]

Russ and Sir Michael that was grate. There is one other thing one my say. Do not use FFFFg for main charg.
 Welcome to TMA Sparkshooter.

[bluelake]

Do not use FFFFg for main charg.
 Welcome to TMA Sparkshooter. :oops:

[Loyalist Dave]

Another caveate with fireworks, is that is its own niche community, so be VERY careful when talking powders with those folks for some of the terms are similar to our community, but do different things.  Not all fireworks "black powder" or "powders" are what we would call gunpowder.  I have seen traditional fireworks made with "powder" which was all the ingredients of BP, mixed, but not formed together in a homogenous <sp> substance, just mixed.  In that fashion it burned, but didn't explode.  The fellow using it mixed it with a fourth chemical, to make an "illumination", sort of a primitive road-flare as part of a display on the ground that was set alite.  AND..., like a chef, I'm not really certain he shared with me all that was really going into the device..., he might've been giving slight disinformation.  He was the expert; not me.

LD