The myth of the Hawken Rifle....

[Muley]

It is a partial list. I just grabbed the section with the guns. The list was pretty long.

[rollingb]

Interesting.  So, this is saying the Hawken sold for $24.00 in the day on the mountain?  Hmmm, would have thought it would be a little more.  Interesting that there would be so many of them, compared to the iron mounted trade rifles.
Also interesting that there are no powder horns on the list, just leather powder bags.  And no flints or perc. caps either.  Hopefully, this is only a partial list.  
Do you know where and when this inventory is taken from?
John

Looks like a partial list of goods from 1837.

[cb]

Interesting.  So, this is saying the Hawken sold for $24.00 in the day on the mountain?  Hmmm, would have thought it would be a little more.  Interesting that there would be so many of them, compared to the iron mounted trade rifles.John

That is the companies cost/wholesale value. Retail value once marked up for sale in the mountains was anywhere from 5% to 2,00% markup dependent on several factors. The price of various items to the buyer/mtn man can be found on a few of the original trade lists including the Ft Hall Records. Many of those records can be found here MOUNTAIN MEN AND THE FUR TRADE.
Other wise the prices listed reflect cost not retail.

PS The iron mounted American Pattern rifles were those made by Henry of Boulton, Penna and IMO were an attempt by Henry to make a similar rifle to those mountain rifles made by the Hawken Shop at a somewhat lesser price. Descriptions of such rifles include a long tang and trigger bar for instance, calibers were generally 54 and were all flintlocks. No existing examples are known today despite the rifle featured by some authors as an iron mounted Henry, which is actually a marked North Carolina made rifle using some Henry parts IIRC barrel and lock - items sold by Henry as wells as complete guns.

[Muley]

That was the site where I got the list.

[MacRob46]

If I remember correctly, Jim Bridger's Hawken is in the Montana Historical Society Museum in Helena. It is a half stock.  Seeing that gun was an inspiration.  My Hawken is the best shooting muzzleloader I have, and so much fun to hunt with.

I was at the museum last June and the Bridger Hawken was not there. In fact, outside of the Cody Museum I did not see many Hawkens - other than TC "Hawkens" - anywhere in Wyoming and Montana. Maybe it was on loan somewhere else.

[MacRob46]

That's the problem Ron. I looked into this a couple of years ago, and nobody could come up with solid proof that there was ever a half stock flintlock Hawken. Some had looked at all the museum Hawkens too.

So, i've assumed that all full stock Hawken rifles were flints, and all half stock were caplocks.

I'm open to be proved wrong. I just want to know the truth.

The only Hawken rifle that shows evidence of having been flintlock at one time is a full-stock belonging to the Smithsonian. There is a good photo of this gun in R. L. Wilson's book, The Peacemakers. I have seen it pictured in a number of publications and am not aware of any other Hawkens which appear to have originally been flintlocks. In the case of this rifle, the lock was clearly flint at some point in its life, the plate is marked "Hawken - St. Louis" and there is percussion drum installed in the barrel. Whether this was a custom rifle or some kind of repair or modification done in the field is impossible to say, absent documentation.

[Sneakon]

Re:  Jim Bridger's Hawken...seems like there are at least a couple.  Here is a link to the rifle I remember from the museum in Helena:
Jim Bridger's Hawken | Muzzleloaders | 24hourcampfire

But there is another from a later time period here:
Jim Bridger's Rifle - Museum of the Mountain Man

Both half-stock.

[Muley]

Re:  Jim Bridger's Hawken...seems like there are at least a couple.  Here is a link to the rifle I remember from the museum in Helena:
Jim Bridger's Hawken | Muzzleloaders | 24hourcampfire

But there is another from a later time period here:
Jim Bridger's Rifle - Museum of the Mountain Man

Both half-stock.

I was looking for a half stock flintlock. Jim's gun was a caplock. Plenty of those are around.

[MacRob46]

Re:  Jim Bridger's Hawken...seems like there are at least a couple.  Here is a link to the rifle I remember from the museum in Helena:
Jim Bridger's Hawken | Muzzleloaders | 24hourcampfire

But there is another from a later time period here:
Jim Bridger's Rifle - Museum of the Mountain Man

Both half-stock.

I was looking for a half stock flintlock. Jim's gun was a caplock. Plenty of those are around.

I went back just now and looked at the photos I took in the museum in Helena which did not include the Jim Bridger Hawken. I was actually looking for the Bridger Hawken, which I heard was in there, and it wasn't, at least it wasn't in June of last year.  I did not ask about it, and probably should have. If I go by there this summer will inquire.

[Muley]

I've seen plenty of pictures of it. It's a half stock caplock.

Here's it's specs.

Jim Bridger's Rifle - Museum of the Mountain Man

[Hawken]

There may be something of a myth about it but in the final analysis it is perfect in handling characteristics and is very accurate with a developed load and PRB!!

[RobD]

i dearly love the nor'east flintlocks produced during the conflict and rev war period, before the golden age era where the calibers were reduced and the bling became profuse.  

but really, the further functional simplicity of the "plains half stock" just can't be beat - a barrel tang knock out plug or two and a hooked breech make for quick field cleaining, adjustments and fixin' ... in either lock format.  

imho, the longer barrels served no accuracy advantage save for sight/aiming pictures.  

a wannabe cheap offshore "hawken" half stock caplock has got to be the easiest ml for a pilgrim to enter our sport, specifically because the flint lock itself needs to be of a higher quality to be reliable than the offshore versions, so caplocks rule for newbies.

[Ohio Joe]

I apologize for reopening this post, but it's an interesting topic!

I think one thing that has not been touched on as yet, and that is that the Mountain Man era, although credited with ending in 1840 after the last Rendezvous,,, well it really didn't... The fur trade continued, it just wasn't as lucrative as it once was, and the annual gathering (Rendezvous) where no longer taking place. However, the trading post were still active and some new ones even sprung up.

Now I do agree completely that there were probably darn few Hawken half-stock rifles during and up to 1840 in the hands of mountain men. And, it only takes one living "famous" mountain man to buy a new half-stock Hawken Rifle (towrads the end of the given 1840 date, or soon after that) to bring forth the notion that all mountain men carried one. We do know Kit Carson had one and remember he was in the public eye which had much to do with him guiding Fremont.

Bridger opened a trading post if I recall, and those stopping to resupply along the Oregon trail, had they seen Bridger toting around a Hawken half-stock rifle, to those unknowing souls set on the trail for Oregon wouldn't know the difference IMHO and would just assume he always had one, even back in his trapping days. Who knows, Bridger himself may have spun some tails to those folks stopping at his trading post about the wonderment of his Hawken Rifle and the fixes it got him out of? Pure conjecture of course, but possible.

There are plenty of ways to spin a myth, and sometimes those myths become the twisted facts of history. Eventually things start to get sorted out over time, and it starts opening the eyes and ears of those interested in such things... Like many of us here, are.   

[Hawken]

No...every Mountain Man didn't have a Hawken but that's not to say that after they had seen and hefted one.......a Hawken was on their 'wish list'!!

[Uncle Russ]

No...every Mountain Man didn't have a Hawken but that's not to say that after they had seen and hefted one.......a Hawken was on their 'wish list'!!

True, very true....ya don't make a name for yourself like Sam Hawken did without doing something right.
I've never read they were outstandingly accurate in anyway, what with that 1:48 twist being due to the fact that particular rifling machine was the only one available at the time, I have never read it shot harder, truer, or farther, so it very well could have been in "the feel", all in the "hefting"...but don't forget what it did for the eye.
It was just downright pleasing to look at....it stirred those inner demons, creating excitement.

Whatever the reason for the Hawken popularity during that special era in time, I am very thankful the likeness of a very similar rifle survives to this day.
Ya simply gotta love the story of the Hawken Rifle, it has changed many of our lives in todays modern world when it comes to hobby / lifestyle we all enjoy immensely, and I personally see that as a good thing.

Uncle Russ.....