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Author Topic: Hunter?  (Read 563 times)

Offline Muley

Hunter?
« on: June 22, 2012, 08:19:01 PM »
I'm trying to come up with a persona. I've never had an interest in trapping, so it makes no sense in taking a trapper as a persona. However, I like the era and location. I've been a hunter since I was 8 years old. It's what I know and love. I'm sure i'd be the same way if I was born 170 years ago. I don't want a persona that's completely different from who I am. I want to put myself back in time, and be me. Do what I think i'd do then.

So, how can I work being a hunter back in 1840? How could I make a living doing it back then? I've read that brigades had hunters. I've also read forts had hunters supply meat for them. I think that interest me more than the brigade, but I don't know anything about it, and not sure where to look for info on it.

What would a hunter be like? What would he wear. Coming back to the fort all the time. He would have access to clothing all the time, and probably wouldn't make his own clothing. The gun would be an important tool for him, so a Hawken would seem like something he'd buy.

This persona has me excited more than any other i've thought of. It suits me the best. Help me put it together.
Pete
TMA Member #655
Expires Dec 2017
Keep your nose in the wind.

Online Bigsmoke

Re: Hunter?
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2012, 11:36:11 PM »
I have some doubts as if a hunter could afford a Hawken.  That was a pretty expensive rifle.  Thinking more along the lines of a JJ Henry or a Leman for a rifle.  No doubt a good many hunters also utilized a Northwest Trade Gun as well.  Could shoot shot or ball.
I would suspect a hunter would wear about the same thing as a trapper.  Probably cloth.  It is my understanding (and I make no claim to being a historian) that cloth clothing was preferred and animal hides were utilized mainly when the cloth wore out, regardless of Remington's paintings .
Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest Up to God.

BigSmoke - John Shorb
TMA Charter Member #150  
NRA - Life
Coeur d'Alene Muzzleloaders - Life

Offline Muley

Re: Hunter?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2012, 12:03:39 AM »
That was my thought to on the clothing. He would have plenty of opportunity to buy clothing at the fort.

As for the Hawken. You could get a basic model for about $30. I've read the hunters were paid pretty well. I would think with a little saving one could be bought. A gun for a trapper is just for  protection, and to feed himself. A gun for the hunter is how he makes a living.

Besides, I love Hawkens.  :bl th up
Pete
TMA Member #655
Expires Dec 2017
Keep your nose in the wind.

Offline mario

Re: Hunter?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2012, 02:47:23 AM »
All depends on how you want to go about it. I go for "plain, everyday and common."

If your persona is of someone attached to a brigade, then look for lists of goods, inventories of goods for the various companies (American Fur Co., etc.)

A Hawken rifle, even in the Hawken Bros.' heyday, wasn't all that common.

NW Trade guns, Leman trade rifles, etc were everywhere. I'll have to look for my copy, but "For Trade and Treaty" has lists of guns ordered by the various companies.

You would have likely drawn gear, arms and clothing from the same source as the trappers.

And lastly, by 1840, the beaver trade was dying, so who were you hunting for?


Mario

Offline mario

Re: Hunter?
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2012, 02:56:17 AM »
Here is an example from the American Fur Co.

In 1839, between 4 different gun-makers, AFC ordered 1174 Northwest guns, 36 NW gun locks, 490 rifles. All 490 rifles were made by J. Henry.


Mario

Offline Muley

Re: Hunter?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2012, 10:44:40 AM »
Lets get away from the brigade for a minute. I did mention that, but also said i'd prefer to get meat for a fort. Live at the fort, and hunt in the vicinity of the fort. Maybe even do a little scouting. I would be supplied my outfit. I'd be a free hunter like a free trapper. I'm not tied into the beaver trade timeline. Going past 1840 is fine.

I'm also a little different than most when they re-enact. I don't just take on the persona at a shoot or rendezvous. I will become that person full time. Within reason. This is one reason I don't want to wear buckskin, but I will wear the cloth clothing. Will people think i'm strange? Sure they will, but if i'm doing it. I guess I am. I've never been bothered by what people think. I just do my thing, and let them do theirs.

I scout the mountains around me over 200 days a year. So, that fits in. Except i'll probably add some primitive camping to it now.

I've thought about how I can actually be a hunter supplying meat for others. The answer is obvious for me. There's a mission in town that feed those who are having a hard time financially. I will hunt for them, and donate all the meat I kill.

This gives me more purpose to do this. I'm not the type to play act. I'd prefer to be that person the best I can. Living in 2012 is not living in 1840, I don't have the same hardships I would have had back then. I can't do anything about that. I can only simulate it the best I can, and enjoy the experience.

I know me, and it's me that i'm putting back in time. I would have found a way to own a Hawken. This whole experience wouldn't seen right without it.
Pete
TMA Member #655
Expires Dec 2017
Keep your nose in the wind.

Offline Muley

Re: Hunter?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2012, 11:11:39 AM »
I found this. Hardly proof, but i've seen original orders received with Hawkens on it. I'm still trying to find it. I know they weren't common, but I only need one. ;)


"The earliest record of a Hawken Rifle is a custom gun made by Samuel Hawken for General Ashley in 1823.  Although the Hawkens had been supplying various goods and services to the American Fur Company from the 1820's, the sale of rifles or guns of any sort is not indicated on surviving documents.  The earliest clearly documented sale of a production Hawken Rifle was an order for 18 rifles by the American Fur Company in 1831.  At least some of these rifles were probably percussion."
Pete
TMA Member #655
Expires Dec 2017
Keep your nose in the wind.

Online Bigsmoke

Re: Hunter?
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2012, 11:53:11 AM »
Muley,
I can go along with your idea on the thought that if'n you wanted a Hawken rifle in 1840, you would have found a way to have a Hawken rifle.  So, that's cool.  Just remember that it was a rarity, compared to the Henry and Leman trade rifles.  See Mario's stats he posted.  Good info, Mario, thanks.  On a personal note, from a pure shooting experience, a Henry rifle is a much more comfortable rifle to shoot, especially with heavier charges.  There just ain't nothing like a Hawken butt plate jammed into your shoulder.
The one thing you mentioned about hunting for the mission in town did attract my attention.  Is this a seasonal thing you are planning on or year around?  The reason I ask is have you discussed this with your local Fish and Game guys?  How is CO on sustenance hunting?  I have no idea how those things are handled there.  Just asking out of curiousity.
As you get your kit put together, a few photos would be great.  Good luck with the project.
John
Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest Up to God.

BigSmoke - John Shorb
TMA Charter Member #150  
NRA - Life
Coeur d'Alene Muzzleloaders - Life

Offline Muley

Re: Hunter?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2012, 12:08:14 PM »
I'm afraid i'd only be able to donate during the regular hunting seasons. It's something though, and they can freeze it and use it during the year.

It would give me more purpose for hunting now. I've done it for 60 years for myself. As a Christian, i'd like to help others now. I've had my share of meat in my life.
Pete
TMA Member #655
Expires Dec 2017
Keep your nose in the wind.

Offline cb

Re: Hunter?
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2012, 02:08:14 PM »
Since you're in Buena Vista read up on the fort hunters working out of Bent's Fort and Pueblo, Colorado, especially. Also check on the hunters, including Carson and Bill Williams, who worked out of Brown's Hole and the Gunnison area. Along with those you have hunters working out of Taos and environs. And yep hunters were well paid.

While by 1840 the beaver trade had become less important, it was not dead (Bridger, Carson, and others continued running small brigades on beaver expeditions until the mid-1840's at least). On the other hand the buffalo robe and dried tongue trade had become very important by the mid-1830's and continued to be so until the later hide and meat trade took over. Many a beaver trapper became buffalo hunters as well as supplying other game to the various forts/trading posts in the Rocky Mtn area. By 1840 there were over 60 forts/posts ranging from Montana south to New Mexico.

As for a Hawken the first records now show that Etienne Provost, an AFCo booshway bought two in 1829. And while yes they were more expensive than the trade rifles by Henry, Dickert-Gill, etc. (Leman didn't have a contract to sell guns to the western market until post-1840).
The trade rifles were less expensive, but were not always of the best quality (documented by letters of complaint from AFCo) and secondly the majority were supplied to the the contract skin trappers and engages (the majority of all trappers, both American and British based) by the fur companys (again documented via Thomas James 1809-1811, and later Thomas Hempstead 1822-23).
On the other hand Hawken sales are also well documented in the 1830's and not just to the upper crust - i.e. a trapper could buy on credit, and the companies were more than willing to let them go in debt.

Quote
On August 14, 1830, William May of the UMO bought:
Hawken rifle $26.50
8 beaver traps at 3.75 each
2 belts
1 pack saddle
2 horses
2 rope halters
1 saddle blanket
"and a variety of clothing beads and blankets"

Quote
Invoice of Sundry Merchandise from the Rocky Mountain Outfit 1836 under charge of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick, & Co.
1/2 Quire Folio pad
2 Rifles Hawkin
1 Coil Bed Cords
25 Calico Shirts
10 Boxes Percussion Caps

Quote
In 1829 Etienne Provost, a French Canadian, became a partner in the American Fur Company. An entry for "2 rifles, Hawkins & Co., $50 " was made against his account. This is one of the few known early references to the purchase of a Hawken rifle by a mountain man. In the same year, Kenneth McKenzie from Fort Floyd (later renamed Fort Union) asked Pierre Chouteau Jr. for two rifles "similar in all respects to the one made by Hawkins for Provost."
 In 1835 a listing of trade goods entrusted to Provost for deliverv to the rendezvous site in the Rockies included ten steel - (iron) mounted rifles at $17.50 each, thirty Northwest guns, three used rifles, and "6 steel mounted rifles, Hawken," at $20 each.

Quote
1834 AFCo trade list for firearms:
-10 steel-mounted rifles "certainly Henry flints, cost $17.50" [MFTQ comment]
-six steel-mounted Hawken rifles
-30 NW guns
-500 lb of Dupont Powder

Quote
1834 RMF:
-5 American steel-mounted rifles @ $17.50 each
-20 NW guns and a dozen replacement NW gun locks

1836 American Fur Company invoice 1836:
2 Am Rifle @$17.50 (steel mounted Henry Lancasters?)
7 " " @$11.00 (brass mounted Henry Lancasters?)
8 Hawkins " from $20 to $26
2 Rifles Hawkins @$24

1837 American Fur Company invoice 1837:
5 Am. Rifles steel mounted @$19 (Henry Lancasters)
10 Hawkens Rifles @$24
12 N W Guns @$4.5
NOTE: In both 1836 and 1837 Hawkens out numbered the Henry's of either type.

Nope the Hawken shop was admittedly not a huge player based on sheer numbers alone, but reading beyond the standard references on finds they were not so uncommon as many think.
IMO - for the late 1830's a full-stock Hawken would most likely be the most common, but half-stocks were being built during the same period. As for percussion or flint either one would be appropriate for the 1830-1840's period.

As for wearing skins or cloth - yep both can be documented, but skins rather than cloth - pants and frock style coat mainly, were probably the most common items worn during the 1830's and 1840's. All the period descriptions of the mountaineers of the period mention skins being predominately worn. For cloth shirts, either linen or cotton, were common, and wool capotes of various weights and types were also common.
Chuck Burrows aka Grey Wolf

Offline Muley

Re: Hunter?
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2012, 02:37:34 PM »
Thank you Chuck for this info. You've made my journey more realistic now, and it's the path i'm going to take.

I wish I had the money to go at it full bore, but that's not the case. I'll just have to keep plugging away until I get to where I want to be. Should be fun.
Pete
TMA Member #655
Expires Dec 2017
Keep your nose in the wind.

Offline Muley

Re: Hunter?
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2012, 11:21:35 PM »
I found this about what a hunter would earn. I have to compare that to what a hunter in a brigade would earn. Then I can make a decision on who I want to be.

Wages and Benefits-Fort Union 1851:
 
Rudolph Kurz was employed as a clerk while at Fort Union in 1851 (Reference).  He described wages and benefits paid to different classes of employees in his journal.  According to Kurz:  
 
"A Craftsmen or workman receives $250 a year;  a workman's assistant is never paid more than $120; a hunter receives $400, together with hides and horns of the animals he kills; an interpreter without other employment, which is seldom, gets $500.  Clerks and traders who have mastered the court language, i.e., the speech of those Indians for whose special advantage the trading posts are established, may demand from $800 to $1,000 without interest.  All employees are furnished board and lodging free of charge; that means, engageés are provided with nothing but meat, a place to sleep, and one raw buffalo hide.  Hunters and workmen eat at the second table, i.e. meat, biscuit, and black coffee with sugar.  Clerks are served with the bourgeois at the first table, which is, on an average, a well furnished table for this part of the country.  We have meat, well selected, bread, frequently soup and pie on Sundays.  Everyone must furnish his bedclothes; however, one may borrow two buffalo robes from the storehouse.
If an employee has a mind to save he can under certain conditions put aside almost his entire income.  In that case he must have on hand a supply of clothing, must be content with the fare at the fort, indulge in no dainties or feasting, and never allow himself to come within 10 feet of the Indian women."
Pete
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Expires Dec 2017
Keep your nose in the wind.

Offline Loyalist Dave

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Re: Hunter?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2012, 09:13:19 AM »
I think folks need to remember that simply saying "I'm a Hunter" is rather generic, especially in the black powder era.  Consider today, you have two groups, sport hunters and professional hunters just in the English speaking world.  Among the sport hunters you find black powder hunters, bow hunters, waterfowlers, bird hunters, dove hunters, big (African) game hunters, big (North American) game hunters, dangerous big game hunters, squirrel hunters, deer hunters, elk hunters, aligator hunters, fox hunters, moose hunters, boar hunters (with spear and with other means), some specialize, and some do all of the above.  

Then when you talk about professional hunters, you find guides for most of the above, plus hunt masters for fox hunting, ghillies in Europe and perhaps on some large estates in America,  not to mention the folks who are paid to thin out herds of deer in parks and other "no hunt" areas near where I live.  

So I caution use of the very broad, generic term.  

Now for the 18th century, you can easily find professional "meat hunters" who were specifically hired to supply a military garrison, a trading post, or a group embarked on a mission into the wilderness such as trapping or surveying or perhaps conducting settlers on a long overland journey.  You will find "hide hunters" who are interested in harvesting hides for sale to folks who make it into leather.  Some work for "companies", some work for themselves.  Then there are "market hunters" who hunt for animals to supply a local market or markets.  Compared to a "meat" hunter, the market hunter is more influenced by what the customers want..., and so might do more waterfowling or bird hunting than red meat or vice versa.  Finally you have the subsistance hunter, who hunts for his own family's meat, and leather, and might from time to time sell off some surplus.  

When you get to the 19th century, and Western forts, you may need to do some in depth reading.  Did the fort have livestock?  If it did then did they need a hunter to go shoot elk or bison?  Did the officers hire a hunter anyway for although they had beef or pork, they wanted variety in their meat?  Did the fort contract for a specific type of meat, so the hunter was hired to supply lots of bison which were salted and preserved in barrels for the winter?  Was the fort a stopping point for travellers, and so there is a self-employed hunter that kills and salts animals and sells the meat to those passing through, while the garrison is fed "army beef"?  

Finally, don't omit the possibility of the "hermit".  Consider the character of "Bear Claw" Chris Lapp in the movie Jeremiah Johnson played by Will Geer.  He tells Johnson (Robert Redford):

Bear Claw: l hunt griz.                

Johnson: Griz?

Bear Claw: Grizzly bears, pilgrim.  l collect the claws.  l had one in that thicket back there,  ready to shake hands until you came along!  
 

Now true, this is a fictional character.  I am also not suggesting that you don Geer's style of costuming as you said you'd wear cloth, but this character cannot be selling a large amount of claws.  He's not suggesting there's a big market for grizzly claws.  Bear Claw lives in the mountains because he chooses to do so.  He is a hermit, a recluse.  He lives mostly in solitude, but he has to get his powder and ball someplace, right?   He also tells Johnson,
"You can cut wood and leave it up on the Judith[river].  Riverboat captains will leave you gold if you put out a pouch.  Good thing to know, if times get hard."  So Bear Claw does have contact with folks from "down below".

Johnson on the other hand is fur trapping, and the idea was to make some money doing so.  So the point I am making is that you could very well have been employed at some other trade for years, attached to the army or the fort garrison, and when the contract ran out or you couldn't do that trade anymore, you didn't head back East, you stayed, and live near the fort, and so now you hunt, and sometimes sell some of what you have harvested for the odds and ends that you need.  Like cloth, powder, shot, etc.

LD
It's not what you think you know; it's what you can prove.

Offline Muley

Re: Hunter?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2012, 11:13:26 AM »
With more thought and research. I believe i'm going to go with being a hunter for a brigade of trappers. I want my life to be in mountains, and not at a fort. I'm a bit of a loner, and hunt alone. So, i'm thinking it would have suited me back then too.

I've always had an interest in being part of a brigade, but i've never had any interest in trapping. I've read many times that brigades had men assigned to do just the hunting. So, I know it's a position that I could have had.

I assume my lifestyle and dress would be like a trapper? How might my pay differ from a trapper in a brigade?
Pete
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Offline Hawken

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Re: Hunter?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2016, 01:15:04 AM »
Hawken made the West safe for Sharps!!
"There ain't no freedom...without gunpowder!"