proof marks

[greggholmes]

anyone know proof stamps?

[rollingb]

Wish I did!  

[mario]

anyone know proof stamps?

The right and left marks look like  crossed scepters with crown over a "V".

In that case, they are English proofs, Birmingham, 1813-1904.



Mario

[Two Steps]

See if this will help ya...

Indian Arms & Ammo Resources - Proof Marks
Al

[Sir Michael]

What Mario said.  Double gun barrels were proofed individually and then proofed again after they were connected together.  Both of the visible marks are early Birmingham Proof Marks as opposed to London Proof Marks.  The one on the left is so deformed it is hard to tell exactly what it is but it should be be the Proof Mark or the second View Mark.  The one on the left is definitely the View Mark.  The SM initials may be those of the barrel maker.  The far left mark is undecipherable unless you have a better image of it.  I can't find a proof or view mark of any kind that is even remotely that shape or outline.  On the underneath side of the barrels should be numbers indicating the bore or gauge of barrels and possibly the individual barrel Proof Marks.

[Captchee]

the ones on the left i believe is probably  the same as the one on the right . IE  Birmingham  proof mark subsequent to 1813.
 HOWEVER if what we are seeing isn’t the V or roman numeral 5 and just pitting , then its  a Birmingham  private proof  for Ketland .
 Now where it gets tricky is that Ketland mark was very similar to  the Tower mark . The  difference is in the detail of the crown itself . Which over time makes it very hard to distinguish between the two
 While the locks say Manton on them they would be late Manton and son /J or  sometimes S  Manton,  if they  if they are not imitations that were marked Manton , which was common .
 Manton had his own registered  private proof  just as Ketland did .
 that original mark which was anointed to Joseph Manton , was not passed on to his sons who also made  guns they marked Manton .

 If they are the same then the the barrels were made by a lesser maker who did not have the privilege of  private proof . There for it will carry matching proof and definitive proof marks .

The SW   I believe is  one of the variants of the Wallis  makers mark .from Dublin

 The 4th mark that’s far to the left  would be the views mark .

So  possibly, I say possibly because there are so many variations and many times  with later guns like yours , its very hard to tell without  trying to clean out the markings. But from left to right  you have
 The proof mark: .  that’s the proof that was done prior to the completion of the barrels .
 Makers mark :. IE the  person or house that made  the barrel
 Definitive proof :. that’s the mark that  was placed by the actual proof house  upon final completion of the barrel  this could be in two places . Breech plug  and barrel
Viewers mark : this is a mark  made by the person viewing the  definitive proof . It attests that the proof is factual and Taxable .

[Capt. Jas.]

Here is some information on debunking the Ketland private proof theory http://www.birminghamgunmuseum.com/medi ... s_Mark.pdf

These look to be Birmingham post 1813 proofs. The right one clearly shows the V beneath so it is the view mark. The other if legible should have a B to the left in the crossed sceptors, a P below in the same location as the V on the other mark and a C on the right. These marks were also counterfeited in the Dutch region.

[Captchee]

Looks to be an interesting link Jas .
 I just scanned through it  real quick . Will read more tonight

Im not sure the left mark would be the BPC mark . Those that I have seen were very clear  in their lettering  also the crown is normally  very much more defined and detailed. In doing so they are often not as deep as what we are looking at here .
also the BPC at least on those that i have held , was very much sperated from the septers . so even when they were corroded or in one case double struck ,  they  still did not bleed into the  septers .
 
 Ill look , at one time I had a set of barrels out in my shop with the BPC marking on it .

 But I do believe that what we are seeing on this barrel set is 4 marks , not 3  

As to that left hand mark . The question at hand , at least for me  is if that mark carries the V or not .
Frankly to me , it looks like it does . But then we are looking at a photo  so
 But if it does then it would IMO be either the proof or the definitive proof . This making the  reversed L shaped Box on the far right  that’s just visible in the photos , the viewers mark

 PS: we also cannot  pass over the detail of the crown , which IMO takes it out of the  earlier marks  or other national marks

[Capt. Jas.]

Good points. That is why I mentioned possibility of fake netherlandish proofs. The known counterfeits I have seen were illegible like that, I believe on purpose. The engraving also looks suspicious to me.

[greggholmes]

some better pics,
there are 5 marks down from left to right

#3



number 4  is left/right


center rib even with #1



represents 10 gauge




top rib