Gathering of 1850's & '60's Muzzle Loading Plainsmen

[sawbones]

Howdy all,  I was just going through these topics when I found this.  I think this era is definitely worth getting into.  Especially in my area.  Not much happened here in Nevada before 1840.  I know there was a little with Joe Walker and Ogden, but the documention aint much.
     I would like to get our club more geared to this era, and I am definietly interested in getting involved with other outfits, and concentrating more on it.  
     Please let me know about any new clubs or events 5that focus more on this time period.           thanks,  Chuck

[Ohio Joe]

It would be nice to breath some life into this topic.  The question is,,, "where to begin?"

Our local White River Brigade is planning such an event for our 2009 schedule in which we'll be using C&B Revolvers and muzzleloading rifles.  We plan on setting it up as a type of action shoot and see what kind of interest we can generate.

As Rondo has pointed out, events such as these do fall within many of our age groups here of young trappers growing old and moving out onto the plains for their livelyhood.

I think the idea has some merrit and perhaps those who belong to ML clubs could approach those in charge and see about coming up with a workable program.  These programs/events could just as easily be moved into gathering type events such as our 1840's cut off Rendezvous have done for the past 30+ years.

Similar ideas exist, as well as clothing when you think about it.  Sure the footware and hats may differ, and we might be totting a six shooter in a holster or stuck in our belt.  Why not?  Put an 1850's - 60's flavor into a club shooting match or gathering.  It might be the coming thing, and certainly fill in a gap that has mostly been ignored, except for the Montana Plainsmen.

I'm not sure what our White River Brigade theme will be for this, but we're working on one.  

[sawbones]

Hey, thanks Joe for the reply.  I have been wanting to do that time period since I started doing this stuff.  
          We're having our first rendezvous this weekend out at my place in Nevada.  The old Applegate trail is only a couple of miles away from my land.  Those guides, as well as all the emigrants were tough hearty people.  But that all took place in 1848.   I'm pretty sure they still relied on a good flintlock most of the time. And, as you know, most of those guides were mountain men in their younger days anyhow.
          I believe in tradition, but I wish that the rendevous we have today, and the black powder clubs would change the cut off date from 1840 to say, 1860 or even 1850.  I can see that would cause some problems at some shoots, especially if they allowed Civil War weapons.  But, I think if they would cut it off at 1860, that problem would be eliminated, and about the only difference you would see would be cap and ball revolvers.  That sounds real good to me.

           We have a lot of guys in my club that feel the same.  I think we will make a special effort to change our time period to at least 1850.  
         Joe,  I like reading your posts, you always give out a lot of good information, and insight.  I learn a lot everytime I get on this thing.  Thanks again, let us know how all that goes.
                                    Chuck

[Roaddog]

Joe you can count me in too. my grate grate grand pappy and granny wre some of the first setlers in your state. Granny helped make the first state flg for your state.  Send me a PM and give me your address and I'll send ya some good readn that my granny hss written. I think you have a darn good idea going here.

[Ohio Joe]

I think with some effort we could see this era of history grow with the help of our local clubs and/or by establishing an event for this very time period.  

My idea was to try and build some interest through one or two of our monthly shoots, get a feel for what those who attend would like to see and take part in and build from there.

I do think that Plainsmen events could be billed strickly as
"Muzzleloading" Plainsmen Events, with perhaps an 1869 cutoff date.  This would keep the cartridge guns out and open the door to the use of Civil War muzzleloaders and perhaps a few more types that otherwise are left out of gatherings because of cutoff
dates or the pure spirit of the gathering such as a North South Skirmish Association gathering.

Action targets for shoots would most likely be preferable such as
gongs and silhouettes.   As long as a marriage can be made between the use of both C&B Revolvers, single shot muzzleloading rifles and single or double barreled flint or percussion shotguns, I think something like this would stand a chance and perhaps spur some interest in those that are looking for something a bit different then what is available today.

I've nothing against the Cowboy Action shoots, but they do not recreate any real history of this time period or any other for that matter with the program they run.  

We need to maintain a level of realism in which the common person doesn't have to worry about being a speed shooter to compete and have a good time around the campfire and giving those a chance to use those six shooters that would otherwise be left behind at home because they don't meet a cutoff date.

With this said and with a little imagination a person who prefers to build a persona around such an event would have many persona's to choose from.  Scout, Buffalo Hunter, 49'er, Lawman, Ranger, Military, Cowboy, Drifter, Outlaw, Gambler, Wagon Master, Trail Boss, Guide, Pioneer, Settler,,, the list is endless for the time period, and a big plus would be the ease in which to insert the women folk and kids into a persona.  This alone can be a big plus!

I think we can keep this topic open and growing with ideas on how to further the development of such events.

[Uncle Russ]

Good thinking, and good post, Joe!

Like others, I strongly believe the Plainsmen have a future in the shooting game.

Uncle Russ...

[Minnesota Mike]

Agreed. Like where you're headed.

Just make it clear - no metal cartidges, stick with percussion cap and flintlock - and you should be okay.

Hmm . . . What about paper cartidge shooters and breech loaders?

r/
MM

[Ohio Joe]

Agreed. Like where you're headed.

Just make it clear - no metal cartidges, stick with percussion cap and flintlock - and you should be okay.

Hmm . . . What about paper cartidge shooters and breech loaders?

r/
MM

Good point MM...  My thoughts are to leave that to those who put an event like this on.  Some clubs may feel different about cutoff dates and paper cartridge black powder firearms being included.

However if a club bills their event as C&B Revolvers, Flint & Caplock
Pistols, Single Shot Muzzleloading Rifles/Longarms, and Single & Double Brl Flint or Cap Shotguns, I wouldn't see a need to worry about it as long as they fall within the 1869 cutoff if they choose to use this date.

[Minnesota Mike]

Yup.

I've found that most all shooters are willing to comply with the rules and requirements - IF they know up front and have a heads up on what to expect.

Had an event where there was timed targets for team competition and all that rules said was 'shoot from the pouch' - well to one member that meant paper cartidges were okay. A bit of unfair advantage however to everyone else who loaded from horn to measurer. When he found out that he could not use his pre-loads, which was all he came prepared to shoot, he was ready to head back for home.

Fortunately we had another shooter who also shot with paper cartidges and had some with him so that sort of evened out two teams. The third team just spit in their eyes and growled 'bring it on'.

r/
MM

[Andy Anderson]

I sure like this idea!! I am partial to this time and location and am working on a heavy Leman cap lock rite now. Are there very many interested in this era?

Andy

[Spotted Bull]

Great idea...........maybe we could get some interest here in Texas.........you know how Texans love their revolvers and shotguns........

[Andy Anderson]

Sure would be a great idea, RB! We do love those wheel guns and scatter guns!! Must be from fightin' them Comanches!!

Hate to be the devils advocate ------but in San Antone and Austin those German gunsmiths were turning out Colt conversions in the late 1860s. They shot cartridges with heeled bullets. Most left the c&b loading lever rite on the gun. I have one of these but don't shoot it cause the ammo is too expensive.

Also the plainsmen might have had a 66' Winchester or so (Indians most likely got 'em first), but the guns of reliability and power were the plains rifles. The early Texas Rangers of the 50s and 60s sure had 'em accross their saddles, ------there is Charlie Goodnights old plains rifle on display at the Museum in Canyon. He had it when he was a Ranger.

[Shawnee Gene]

Gentlemen, I for one do not want to see this topic die.  I have begun to see if I can start something here in SEMO come spring.  I have also spent the winter doing research, so ask your questions and lets get this going.

[Gordon H.Kemp]

I'll have to agree with all here. I thik this would get the attention of many who don;t care to get involved in the fur trade, F&I war, rev or even the longhunter phase. This time period was filled with immigrants from Ireland ,Germany, England , Poland and the slovak countrys. Even the youngest here have been told storys of how their great great grand parents lived ond survived.
           People whose relatives didn't come to America till the 1840s 50s and 60s Find it harder to relate to pre 1800 groups. Sounds like a great oppertunitty to  provide a central theme for a whole lot of folks.

[Ohio Joe]

Agreed Gordy, something like this if it could become reality could offer an avenue of interest for those who's interest does not relate as far back as the 1840's or before, but rather after that time period.

Our local club has yet to hammer out any real details on such an event, but at times we still talk about doing something along these lines, and perhaps this year we might just get a blend of the revolver and rifle to come together?  

Unfortunately right now the country's economy is in a shambles and people I believe aren't willing to spend what money they do have on new recreational ideas.  Then again they might?  If for no other reason then to search out simpler times?