Your TMA Officers and Board of Directors
Support the TMA! ~ Traditional Muzzleloaders ~ The TMA is here for YOU!
*** JOIN in on the TMA 2024 POSTAL MATCH *** it's FREE for ALL !

For TMA related products, please check out the new TMA Store !

The Flintlock Paper

*** Folk Firearms Collective Videos ***



Author Topic: Smoothbore Options for Mountain Man  (Read 2099 times)

Offline jbullard1

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 955
(No subject)
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2009, 02:16:17 PM »
Quote from: "Kermit"
Jerry! Is it English? Is it a gun? Do you shoot shot? Well, then...

But, do you hunt fowl? Now then...

..................................................................

No BraveHeart isn't English Its made in the USA from an English Shotgun preform stock from Pecatonica.  :shake

I would like to see a pic of a true English Fowler
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 08:13:51 PM by jbullard1 »
Mississippi TMA State Representative
Member #318  Valid until Jan 15, 2011
Hatchie Run Longrifles Member

Offline Kermit

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 421
  • TMA: 3/21/17 ~ 3/21/18
  • TMA Member: 393
(No subject)
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2009, 07:59:35 PM »
So, then we need a pic of a gun made in England and used to hunt fowl.

Anyone?
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly."
Mae West

Member Number 393

Offline cb

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 294
    • http://www.wrtcleather.com
(No subject)
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2009, 08:18:07 PM »
Quote from: "Kermit"
So, then we need a pic of a gun made in England and used to hunt fowl.

Anyone?

single barrel, double barrel, time era, flint, percussion????
Chuck Burrows aka Grey Wolf

Offline jbullard1

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 955
(No subject)
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2009, 08:31:39 PM »
Quote from: "cb"
Quote from: "Kermit"
So, then we need a pic of a gun made in England and used to hunt fowl.

Anyone?

single barrel, double barrel, time era, flint, percussion????

For me; Flint single barrel
Mississippi TMA State Representative
Member #318  Valid until Jan 15, 2011
Hatchie Run Longrifles Member

Offline tg

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 397
(No subject)
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2009, 10:06:13 PM »
I would say that to me the English fowlers of the 18th century were beautiful there was a certain range of quality and degree of carving and engraving like anyother guns of the time, most trdae guns/fusils were just less elegant more cheaply made versions of the fowlers of the period.

Offline Longhunter

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1853
    • http://www.shrewbows.com
  • TMA Member: Charter Member #54 Expires 03/26/2019
(No subject)
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2009, 10:57:26 PM »
Ron LaClair
TMA Charter member #54 Valid until 03-26-2019

RON_LACLAIR.html

TMA, Keeping the traditional spirit alive by example

When the deer are gone I will hunt mice, for I am a hunter

Offline cb

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 294
    • http://www.wrtcleather.com
(No subject)
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2009, 12:00:45 AM »
Quote from: "jbullard1"
Quote from: "cb"
Quote from: "Kermit"
So, then we need a pic of a gun made in England and used to hunt fowl.

Anyone?

single barrel, double barrel, time era, flint, percussion????

For me; Flint single barrel

Check out Mike Brook's site - he makes excellent copies of English fowlers......
Chuck Burrows aka Grey Wolf

Offline tg

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 397
(No subject)
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2009, 12:25:16 AM »
For the "Mt. Man" period an American made fowler would be more likely the English sent over probably most of the fowlers used untill after the Rev war, a lot of American fowlers used a set of English mounts, Chambers has a Pennsylvania fowler, there are several buiders that make American fowlers such as Early Rustic Arms, TVM and others ,if you want a fowler that  is the way I would go but this would likely be a more expensive piece than the typical trade gun many used and I am not so sure the average Mt Man is going to buy a hight priced imported fowling piece with so many  other options at hand.

Offline cb

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 294
    • http://www.wrtcleather.com
(No subject)
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2009, 03:44:15 AM »
FWIW - all of the currently available documentation shows that the average aka plain everyday common AMERICAN Mountain Man (including the tribes such as the Delaware and Shawnee who were an important yet little known part of the western fur trade) overwhelmingly chose rifles, except for specialized needs such as running buffalo on horseback or for night guard duty. Otherwise their downright disdain for smoothbores is well cited. Yes the trade lists show a much larger quantity of fusils available, but in most cases they show only what was available and not what was purchased - most in fact went to Indians or non-Americans. On the other hand ALL of the extant journals form the period state emphatically that rifles were the gun of choice for American trappers.
Does this mean that no mtn man carried a smmothbore? Nope as always it depends on who, when, and where - the Metis, French, and Creoles who made up a major portion of the western fur trade manpower generally preferred fusils, but again the vast majority of AMERICANS carried rifles and these were usually supplied by the companies they were employed by or were supplied to those affiliated with a particular company such as the skin trappers - Joe Meek's term for one of the two types of free trapper. Skin trappers were "free" agents who were grubstaked with supplies in exchange for a share of his furs, but who were not directly employed by the company (this is what Ashley's famed 100 young men of 1822 were). This type of free trapper was the majority we know by that name and included men affiliated with the HBC as well as with the Americans. The other type of free trapper, those on their own hook - the free trapper of modern rendezvous fame and fable, did exist, but they never made up more than about 10% of the total men in the field at any one time and were more common in the Colorado and New Mexico areas where run ins with hostiles were far less common than in the northern Rockies where the Blackfoot tribes were such a threat until the late 1830's when smallpox wiped out a large portion of them.
The vast majority of the rifles supplied by the American companies were either brass mounted American/Lancaster pattern flintlocks or the brass mounted English pattern flintlocks.

re: smooth rifles - the extant fur trade records show they saw little if any use in the Rocky Mtn Fur Trade. In fact one letter from American Fur to J Henry states that they unsellable since their customers when given the choice prefer "real" rifles or if they want a smoothbore they choose the much lighter fusil.
Chuck Burrows aka Grey Wolf

Offline tg

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 397
(No subject)
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2009, 09:40:33 AM »
Good post Chuck, particularly on the smoothrifle on record mentions that the supplier was trying to push the smoothrifles as they were quite popular in the east but his buyerrs were not interested, the rilfe was the top choice as you have said but the smoothbore fusil or fowler or whaever incarnation you choose depending upon the time and place would not be an incorrect choice, I think it is always good to know what was common but not so sure we should fel a need to always travel that path, much would be left out if only the common was accepted.This requires some research but that is half the fun.

Offline Longhunter

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1853
    • http://www.shrewbows.com
  • TMA Member: Charter Member #54 Expires 03/26/2019
(No subject)
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2009, 10:00:21 AM »
Thanks Chuck, I always enjoy your input because I know it's  documented and not speculation...   :lol:
Ron LaClair
TMA Charter member #54 Valid until 03-26-2019

RON_LACLAIR.html

TMA, Keeping the traditional spirit alive by example

When the deer are gone I will hunt mice, for I am a hunter

Offline sse

  • TMA Contributing Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5375
  • TMA Founder
  • TMA: TMA Co-Founder, Charter Member, BoD.
  • TMA Member: Charter Member #3
(No subject)
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2009, 09:57:24 AM »
Quote from: "Longhunter"
Quote
Puff - I also hear a lot of people talk down the English fowler as not being as artistically appealing as the fusil...



not being as artistically appealing ? Is that a fancy phrase for sayin my English Fowler is ugly?...Them's fightin words.. :lol:
LOL!!  I never did see a "traditonal" muzzleloader that was ugly!  But, yes, there are those out there who swoon over the fusil like no other (you know who you are).  LOL!

Thanks to all for the comments and Longhunter for the very good links...
Regards, sse

************
Consider joining the TMA...If you're not a member, you're missing out...

TMA Member #3
Exp. July A.D. 1825