A few questions on a 20gauge fowler...

[Longhunter]

I have five flintlock smoothbores, a 12, three 20's and a 28ga. None of them are choked. I think that the experience of shooting/hunting with guns like our forefathers used is what it's all about. To enhance the guns efficiency with chokes, plastic wads or whatever is putting more importance on killing game than experiencing the challenge of an 18thcentury hunter.

Part of that challenge is experimenting with different loads in your smoothbore to determine what is the most efficient load for your particular gun. You don't NEED to have a killing pattern at 40yds. If you're not a good enough hunter to get that bird in to 30yds then you'd be better off to hunt with a modern gun.

I look at my smoothbores as guns for all types of hunting. That means they must not only pattern shot well but they must also shoot a patched roundball well. I think the chances of a gun performing as such are better with a barrel that isn't choked. JMHO.

[Captchee]

After reading over my  past posts , I think I need to make a clarification  so as to clear up something .
When I said PC be dammed . I meant concerning the hardware on my HV fowler .
 On the piece im  using as reverence , the hardware is brass . I want Damascus.
 Which by the way is period correct  and documented to be used on higher end European pieces , To include the locks .
 but NOT on the HV that im awear of
 
 the simple fact is that there "were" many different types of  way to improve  performance of  muzzle loading  piece .
 rifling was a way to gain more accuracy. In fact  that’s the very reason for the different types of  rifling
 Take this topic at hand . There were many different way to  do what we call choking .
 some work , some do not .

 Now that  that being said .  I am not saying that one would find such things on a  cheaply made NW gun . However we know they existed  and   were done on fowling pieces .

 Here is the problem .
 All to often , what is  and is not considered Period  or historically correct , is all to often not defined by actual documentation . Instead its defined by a set of misguided opinions.
 Thus  a whole lot of folks follow like  a  given OPPENION  , like lemmings over a cliff .

 I would point folks to  some other  issues  that are also very common
* No rear sights on smooth bores
*  1 in 70 being the only twist rate found  on rifles
* NO of breech loaders
*    opinions concerning early cartridge rifles   pre 1850
* colt being the father of the revolver
* flintlocks being slow and  un reliable
* smooth bores having poor accuracy
 .  
* every mountain man  in the western fur trade carried . A rifle . Not any rifle  it must be a Hawken rifle
* for that mater what is and what is not a Hawken

The list can go on and on . all are thing that contiunue to be propetuated  as facts

 So lets talk a minute about swamps  writing concerning integrity.
 How many times on this  or other boards  do we see people  with  rifles that are supposed to be early . Yet they carry  strait barrels ?
 You all do understand that  for a pre 1800  gun , that is not period correct .
 How many times do we  accept  the TC  and Lyman rifles  with coil spring locks .
 While coil springs were used to fire a  very small number  early lock designs . They were to my knowledge not used   in locks found in this country .
For that mater how many folks are walking around with  siler locks on rifles that should not have that design of lock ?
 How about the mounting  and use of Iron hardware  ? . Now there is a discrepancy  for you to speak about , if ever there was one .

Integrity is about standing by ones beliefs . Regardless  of what  the mass , popular opinion is .  
 Its about not going with the flow  and repeating  opinions . Just because it’s  felt to be the  popular  opinion.


 This organization was founded  on getting   people true  information .
 Hopefully as factual as   we can . If we don’t have that information we WILL do everything we can to point people in the direction where they can find  it .

 This person  asked about a choked bore for hunting . Yet wanted something that would pass muster at a re-enactment .
 Having a jug choked gun  is NOT going to effect  its ability to  fit into a situation that is based on  documented looks .
 It will NOT  give him any  edge over  someone with a cylinder bore  at such events. Un less that event includes live  shooting of shot .
 Simply put , it will not make his piece  any more effective at shooting a blank load then anyone else shooting a blank load

 In fact I submit this to you . I seriously doubt that a person that has not taken the time to work up a proper  hunting load for their fowler . Will find that  having a jug choke  gives them any real benefit over someone who has taken the time to work up a proper  regulated load for their  cylinder bore .
 To back that opinion ill point folks back to what I and a couple others  first  experienced here on this forum  many , many years ago  when we first started posting  about  patterns of 30 inches or less at ranges of 30 yards . There were pages upon pages   concerning this on the old forum . Yet still today  many folks simply  believe that those types of patterns are impossible to achieve through a cylinder bore .

 Now if someone wants to stay 100% period correct .Then I would suggest seriously researching  what was done  for their given piece . NOT simply what was done , somewhere at some time , on some other gun .
 Don’t fall for following a popular  opinion unless you yourself can  support that opinion with documentation . For if you  do . Your libel to run into a case where you will be proven to be miss guided  in your base of reasoning .

IMO Greener  did a very good job of suporting his writings with the documentatin he had at that time . Read it , understand it  and build your base of information from there

[Swamp]

AMEN to that Ron!  

Good luck to you, and PLEASE keep us informed as to your progress, as well as share your hunts with us. We love to talk about that!  

[Swamp]

Captchee, I don't understand why your taking a jab at me? I was adding to the conversation of Boltguns questions about his smoothbore purchase that's all!
 
I typed out our motto, as this is how I look at it.

Integrity = Is having values (The TMA values which we all believe in and follow to the best of our knowledge) , being consistent with one's values or belief system (again, the members being consistant to our traditional roots and beliefs), not wavering due to outside influences (not letting the modern crowd influence our values or beliefs as a group), standing strong in how one should live and believe (Standing strong for our values and beliefs as a traditional group and way of life).

[pathfinder]

Swamp, I quit hunting in the late '70's,no sport hittin' a critter at 200+ yards, muzzleloaders brought me back to the woods,some of the best hunts I've had I didn't see any critters!

[Longhunter]

Thanks Capt, you've made the subject as clear as mud...

[Swamp]

Path, I too quit hunting, with modern weapons about 10yrs ago. I've been shooting traditional muzzleloaders for over 25yrs, but not to the level like I am now for the last 10yrs or so. I got bored hunting, and taking some nice animals with the modern stuff. I was caught up in all the "trophy status" stuff, wanting big racked bucks, and so focused on the kill itself, that I was just not having any fun, and somewhat angry with everything.

Then came some friends and I, putting together a small traditional group, and jumping in with both feet, and never looking back. Hunting took on a whole new perspective, and appreciation, and it's never, and I mean NEVER been so good! We do the rendezvous' and such and have a great time, but there's nothing like a traditional hunt/camp, like we had last Sept, the Tree Rat Rendezvous! There, you are really living the 18th century lifestyle. It's the best, and when you can share it with family and friends who are like minded, your in for the time of your life!

Boltgun, I hope your reading and taking in what we're saying here. The traditional hunter gets so much more out of it!

[pathfinder]

The tree rat's are in for a rude awakening when Ole' Pathfinder gets to yer place,I'm ready for the counter attack and feasting on the "other white meat"!
Ron,spot on with the response from Capchee.
Boltgun,do the best you can and put forth an honest effort,NO ONE will give you grief. Seems all this P/C-H/C stuff is more important here in cyberspace than the real world. I have a hodgepodge of stuff I've made,acquired,bought,traded over the years and not once..EVER,did anyone say anything about my gear. I've done everything from strict juried events,to city park show and tell's for over 30 years and have had the time of my life. People have giant BA--S here on the computer. Enjoy this silly game I still call "Buckskinning"

[Captchee]

no jab at you swamp . I thought I was actually agreeing with you

 and ron . your right , clear as mud . history is clear as mud .
 on one had we  proclaim what is PC .  what our forfathers did . what their weapons were
 but what is the base for that ?
 is it factual documentation or is it opinion?

 On one had we have those who proclaim any type of improvement is not PC
 Yet in fact  the history of firearms development is based on one improvement after another
 What we call today chokes are nothing more then  improved bores . Historically there are  many  different applications  to do just that .
 Thus proclaiming  that having an improved bore  is  not PC  , why ?
  Well IMO the point of view is based on the same thing as  the  opinions I posted . IE not factual information  but roomer and  opinion based on others opinions , not documentation  

 Myself I have no issues with my cylinder bore’s . they do everything I want them to do . I don’t see a need for a choke .
 But to turn around and imply that someone who wants some type of choke “ Improved cylinder “ is somehow  not  being faithful .  
Come on .
 Have you ever heard of Stanislaus Placzelt ?

Mussee D Armes Liege


 There is just so much  of what we consider to be modern . That in fact is not .  What happened was someone came along and re invented the wheel . we then turn around and  assume it to be modern  base on the date of re invention

Do we not owe these people  asking questions to be as factual as we can ?
i think we do . regardless of what our opinions are .

So while you , I and swamp , as well as probably many others   here , may agree that there is no better day  spent hunting , then one setting  under a tree , enjoying the woods or facilitating a difficult stalk  on an animal .
all the while  placing filling a tag as  being  way down the chain of priorities .
 The basic facts are . that’s not what ask about here .
 What was ask is if this person can  have some kind of choke on  his smoothbore and still have it pass muster at an re-enactment . The answer should have been YES .

 But instead we  have driven off into what is and is not historically correct  .
What our personal opinions of hunting are.

[Swamp]

Sorry Capt!   I'm so tired lately that you may have not and I just didn't see it that way. So forgive me!

That is why I hate the forums sometimes, as something can be taken the wrong way when it was never meant to be that way in the first place! You can't hear the tone of ones voice when typing, and others type differently than you and I, and then it ends up looking like we're bickering back and forth! I hate that.

Ahh, well, I hope all is well. Le's get them hunt camps together this fall, and let's hear some good story telling!

[Captchee]

no issue  swamp , it happens

[Gordon H.Kemp]

Glad to see you all have come to an understanding . My personal feelings pretty much agree with what you have said . MLs and the gear that go with them , put the HUNT back in HUNTING ! I've always enjoyed the experience no matter wether or not I made meat . It seems that in the last 30 years or so , everything has to be bigger  shoot farther , hit harder etc. or it's not acceptable . I never was that impressed with chokes on modern guns and if some folks feel they will be the magic wand that will make them a "better" hunter/killer with less work , have at it .