A few questions on a 20gauge fowler...

[boltgun71]

I'm going to have a 20 gauge fowler built for myself over the next few months and have a few questions for all the experts here.  The fowler will be used for hunting(small game and turkey) and some re-enacting, specifically the 1770's-1780's time frame.

What kind of shot patterns can I expect out of a basic 20 gauge 38-42" barrel?  I ask this because as I stated I fully intend to use it for turkey hunting and want to know what I can expect from it.  No type of choked barrel would be PC that I have found.  I looked at Colerain's turkey barrel but dont want to lose the PC'ness as I beleive would happen.  I have read about "jug" choking but still dont really understand that.  Am I worrying to much about choke and simply underestimating the ability of a smoothbore?  Is their a PC choked barrel?

I'm trying to decide on a buttstock configuration but having a hard time finding pictures to compare the different styles.  I do have a few books on this but was wondering if anyone has any websites or pictures of their own that I could check as well.  What is comfortable for a good pointing fowler in your expert opinions?  

A round faced lock would be more appropriate then a flat faced style lock on a fowler built prior to the mid 1780's correct?

That should be good for now.  Thanks for any help and information in advance.  I love this forum for its wealth of information.

[Riley/MN]

I believe a jug choke is "correct", historically speaking, but I am not sure how far back. Others will chime in I'm sure.

Just make sure the 20 ga smoothbore muzzleloader is legal for turkeys where you hunt (it is not in MN)

[Shawnee Mike]

My 20 bore will throw a 2 foot aprox pattern of 6-8 shot at 40 yards

[Captchee]

Well here is my take
  IMO there is no need for a choke unless your going to be shooting  well past 30 yards
   See with a muzzleloader you have the ability to fully regulate your load . Where with shells you cant
  Some time ago I had a 20 gage English fowler  that  I did some serious working loads for  and was able to get a 30 inch pattern at 30 yards .
 I followed the same  princaple with my SXS and get very close to the same  range .
 Im just not a big believer in chokes .
 Now that being said  if you decide you want a choked bore  sometime down the road . Have it jug choked . Jugging will not change the  profile of you piece at all .

As to photos . Man wouldn’t that be a  web site
 I don’t know of one that has a recorded full line  of different fowlers . But if you do a google photo search for; Flintlock fowlers  you will have enough web sites to keep you busy for a very , Very long time .
 Also I would highly recommend the book ; Flintlock fowlers  
As to what I myself like . Through the years I have had  many smoothbores  ranging from  simple Trade guns  and hunters like the Fusil De Chase  and English fowlers .
 But I love my SXS the most . I have also always wanted  an Early  Hudson Valley  Fowler . A couple years back I got to hold one. Up untell then I figured that the lines of the stock with that early dutch goose neck , had to be cumbersome to shot .
 I found it not to be so . Infact past my SXS I have never had a piece that came up so well .
So in this economic down turn , I now have the time to build me a HV that I want . HC  bedamed as it will probably be one of the last smoothies I own  .
She has a 52 inch barrel  a small bore “28 gage “  and im forging all the hardware from demascus .
why becouse i want it that way . as i said PC/HC be dammed

[Loyalist Dave]

Sorry, but Jug Choking is 19th Century, post Civil War.  At least according to several websites..., so could be inaccurate...,  either a guy named Kimble did it in America in 1868, or a guy named Pape did it in England in 1866.

LD

[Captchee]

Sorry, but Jug Choking is 19th Century, post Civil War.  At least according to several websites..., so could be inaccurate...,  either a guy named Kimble did it in America in 1868, or a guy named Pape did it in England in 1866.

LD

and how is one going to know dave ?
 you cant see it

also as to the HC of the issue . if you look back you will find the spanish doing chokes even in the lat 17th century . this includes a type of screw in  fixture .
as to bore modifications .  Greener  in his book ;The gun and its development .
mentions alot of  these range clear back to the early 18th century .
 here is one such account .

there are even earlier accounts  then this .
 here is a link to a discussion we had on the subject over on the double gun Journal some time ago . well worth reading . lots of sound information

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=121752&page=1&PHPSESSID=9d5ee32e25e7aa855229b3f069eaf438

 myself i cannot see how  this person  could in anyway be  effected by a PC standard  unless he tell someone

[tg]

I think the jug choke was what is thought to be a later thing and just because you can't see it does not make it right, particularly when it offeres an advantage over how things were done in the past this is the issue many have with jug chokes and claiming to be hunting with PC/HC gear. Having a lack of respect for the HC/PC factor is fine but do not push the disrespectfull mindset on others who may be to learn the difference.I cannot believe I heard that on the " Traditional" ML forum, I was actually gaining some respect for the place.

[Captchee]

"EDIT"

 you know what , forget it  

 in done .

[sse]

Having a lack of respect for the HC/PC factor is fine but do not push the disrespectfull mindset on others who may be to learn the difference.I cannot believe I heard that on the " Traditional" ML forum

I don't think there is a lack of respect for anything here, but I think whatever your opinion it would be a good idea to be respectful of others at all times.

[tg]

"I don't think there is a lack of respect for anything here,"

I think you might want to re-read the posts on this thread and the attitude towards PC/HC
 if it reflects the general mindset about the historic value held here, then there is a respect issue, but I am of a like mind with cap on one thing, i'm done, wanna be  traditional forums have been a dime a dozen  in cyberspace for years and it only takes a bit more deication and commitment to really be there, anyway, do enjoy your journey gentlemen, I hope you  find and embrace the traditional path one day, good bye.

[sse]

do enjoy your journey gentlemen, I hope you find and embrace the traditional path one day, good bye.

Much better.  Now that wasn't so hard.

[mario]

I'm trying to decide on a buttstock configuration but having a hard time finding pictures to compare the different styles.  I do have a few books on this but was wondering if anyone has any websites or pictures of their own that I could check as well.  What is comfortable for a good pointing fowler in your expert opinions?  

Depends on your tastes and what person you are in that 1770-1780s timeframe.

If you are a New England farmer a "Frenchier" stock would be good. If you are a merchant in Charleston, SC, an English style would be more appropriate.


I use both English and French guns and like them both.

A round faced lock would be more appropriate then a flat faced style lock on a fowler built prior to the mid 1780's correct?

Generally, yes. But all depends on person, place, time.



Mario

[pathfinder]

My two cents. Who in world will EVER know if your gun is chocked in ANY configuration? If they can tell,they are WAY too close! #2,you have to also consider the fact we have a very limited amount of time to hunt due to season restrictions,so we need every advantage we can muster,so, if your gun fits the style and time period you would like to portray,do what ever you want inside the tube,unless you really want the experiance of the 18th century hunter,then get ready for gout,scurvey,lice,ect........................

[Capt. Jas.]

Back to boltgun71's concerns which include "PC/HC.

Bolt, a jug choke is not correct for your time frame but it will be completely unseen and unknown to anyone except those who run a scour down your barrel. Most likely that will always be you.
A period fowling piece that would have been used by fowlers would many times have the bore relieved in a cone from the muzzle down in about 1.5 inches. This was sometimes accompanied by either a roughened breech area or a breech area relieved as the muzzle was. This is not a choke as we know it but was the accepted forerunner of the day. Officer's fuzees which looked like fowling pieces were straight cylinder bored for shooting a wadded round ball like a musket.
I agree with Charles that within skeet ranges, you will do fine with the cyl. bore.  

If you want to PM me with your personna  (who, what , when, where, etc.) I can help you some there as I have collected a database of fowling pieces over the years.

James

[Swamp]

The Traditional Muzzleloading Association is "Dedicated to Preserving the Historical Integrity of the Muzzleloading Firearm".

Integrity = Is having values, being consistent with one's values or belief system, not wavering due to outside influences, standing strong in how one should live and believe.
ANSWER
ALWAYS DOING THE RIGHT THING EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW NO ONE ELSE IS LOOKING.

Boltgun, I shoot a Tulle (Fusil De Chase), and it patterns good out to about 30 yds. It kills game plain and simple.

Now, with that being said, I want to add this. I tend to see a lot of folks trying to get performace out of traditional ML's like they do with modern firearms. It won't happen. Can you get good performance out of traditional guns, YES! But to many hunters these days put all their emphasis on killing game, and forget all about the hunt itself. For me, that's what traditional ML'ing has brought back, "THE HUNT"! I don't worry about "The turkey at 40yds" anymore! I think about "How can I close the distance to TRY to harvest the animal I'm after" and, how nice it was to sit in the woods and listen to the birds sing, squirrels chatter, geese overhead on their migration south, you name it. If everyone would just stop thinking about how I'm going to fill my tags or game bag, and focus on the hunt itself, they will have a more enjoyable hunt, and not coming home saying "I didn't see anything today", or "a hunter walked by me today and ruined my hunt".

Do you see what I'm trying to say? I could go on and on about this. But maybe I answered your question as to if you are worrying to much about a choked barrel.

Hope this helps. Please let us know how you make out.