Ratio of undecorated to decorated guns.

[Three Hawks]

From the  pre Colonial to the early 20th Century I wonder how many plain, undecorated muzzleloading civilian guns were made and sold for every highly carved, engraved and precious metal inlaid gun.  

I've corresponded with a dozen or more builders in the last fifteen years and haven't been able to find one who wants or has time to make up a "from scratch" plain, serviceable med. (.40 - .50)caliber rifle to suit my needs and pocketbook.   Even parts kits from the "Usual Suspects" lean heavily to "Golden Age" museum  and presentation pieces.  Where are the barn and behind the kitchen door guns and the ones meant for daily use?

The closest I've been able to come is my T-C Seneca with the .40 cal.  Green Mountain barrel I've cobbled together on my own, or my Traditions Crockett .32.   One of those in .40 would be a real barn burner.

There had to have been plain guns, there just had to have been, how many people could have afforded a museum piece type gun with several hundred hours tied up in it?

Three Hawks

[Kermit]

My theory is that the fancy guns survived 'cuz they were too precious to take afield--and anyone with that kind of income didn't need to in the first place. The plain guns were probably plumb used up. I saw somewhere a barrel marked "Hawken" that had been forged into a prybar, and it was unearthed along a railroad. That same kind of fate might have befallen many a common man's gun.

I'm a fan of "schimmels" and keep hoping to see more pictures of the barn guns Don Getz makes. Track sold one a while back that was made by Matt Avance over at TVM. I've got a bunch of photos on my hard drive that I've grabbed over time.

While not exactly a "poor boy," I have a .54 Early Virginia with a 42" Longhammock octagon-to-round barrel, L&R round-faced lock. No carving, no decoration other than a simple thumbpiece, brass mounted. Only way I can see myself liking it more is if the buttplate and nosecap were omitted, but for a gun with a walnut stock and intended for field use, that didn't seem smart.

[Three Hawks]

Even accurate descriptons of some plain guns would be helpful.  Pictures, of course, would be wonderful.  Trying to duplicate a wisp of smoke is somewhat difficult.  I've got a picture in my head of what I think I might like, but whether or not it's a picture of what actually was is another thing altogether.

I know for sure that I don't want a .54,  too dang much lead and powder downrange now that I only hunt one small area and then only for a few days.   I neither need nor want anything bigger than .45,  even that is a little bit large.  .40 is almost ideal, using a .390 roundball and 30-40 grains of 3F depending on whether I want to kill paper or a nice fat little coast blacktail doe.  

Another question I've yet to have answered is what is the optimum length for shooting a patched .390 Roundball using 3F powder?  

Three Hawks

[J.D.]

Try Don Getz, he builds a pretty nice Pa schimmel/barn gun with no buttpate, entry thimble or nosecap. I don't know what he gets for them, but the few I have seen are pretty nicely done.

He lives in the area where the original schimmels were made and has seen his share of them, so he knows what they looked like.

God bless

[Capt. Jas.]

The one Don had at Dixon's the other weekend was either 1600.00 or 1800.00. Can't remember exactly.
Was as J D described

[Old Salt]

Cabin Creek Muzzleloaders sells a "PA Mountain Rifle" that is plain as they come.  No butt plate, no entry thimble, no side plate.  

I've shot one example in .45 caliber and that rifle fits me better than any other gun I've ever shot.

Salt

[mario]

The "poor boy" gun, for the most part, is a 19th century thing.

In the 18th century, all guns had hundreds of hours tied up in them. A gunmaker may have bought some parts, but those parts were still handmade by somebody.

The various trade guns were the most cheaply made of their time. But on the whole, a basic fowler/rile had a bit of carving and engraving. To us, it may seem fancy or unneccessary on a basic gun, but at the time, labor was cheap and materials were expensive. The opposite is true now.

All guns back then were meant for "daily" use. But not all people had to use a gun every day.

When you say "from scratch", does that mean a forged barrel, forged lock, etc? or just parts and a blank of wood?


Mario

[Mitch]

Another question I've yet to have answered is what is the optimum length for shooting a patched .390 Roundball using 3F powder?

Not sure it's "optimum", but I shoot prairie dogs regularly at 75yds and have killed a few at over 100yds with my .40flinter-load is 75gr 3f, .395ball and "a patch"....your mileage will probably vary as I tend to "push" my guns

[J.D.]

Another question I've yet to have answered is what is the optimum length for shooting a patched .390 Roundball using 3F powder?  

Three Hawks

Depends on what barrel you have and how much powder you want to burn in it.  

IMHO, anything shorter than a 38" barrel doesn't look right on a long rifle.

Chuck Edwards built a real nice gun for is 12 year old son, at that time, sporting a 38", 40 cal, A wt, swamped barrel. That gun was light as a feather and pointed quite naturally. The LOP was about 13 inches and fit everyone who shouldered it.

The one I'm building will have a 44", 4o cal, A wt, barrel that is light as a feather and well balanced.

IMHO, it isn't so much about what barrel length is most efficient, 'cuase that will change with powder charge and patch/ball combination, but what barrel length and profile fits the style of gun being built.

God bless

[Three Hawks]

"Another question I've yet to have answered is what is the optimum length for shooting a patched .390 Roundball using 3F powder? "

I worded that one very poorly.  I meant what length barrel, not what range.  
Three Hawks

[Mitch]

my .40 has a 43 1/2" barrel...don't know if it's "the best", but it's the best for me!! and it looks cool....

[J.D.]

"Another question I've yet to have answered is what is the optimum length for shooting a patched .390 Roundball using 3F powder? "

I worded that one very poorly.  I meant what length barrel, not what range.  
Three Hawks

That is an unanswerable question. It all depends on powder charge, brand, lot,  granulation and moisture content of powder used, ball diameter, hardness or softness of the lead, patch thickness, threads per inch of the  fabric used for patch material, patch lube, bore diameter, width of the lands and grooves, smoothness or roughness of the bore, depth of rifling, temperature, ambient humidity, and probably a hundred other factors I can't think of, at the moment.

Again, IMHO, use the length and style of barrel appropriate for the gun you want to build or buy. Work up the most accurate load, then shoot the daylights out of it.

God bless