The shootability of a smoothbore?

[mario]

Smoothbores can be quite accurate but they are not rifles. A good rule of thumb is 50 yds or less.  I know someone will post that there smoothbore is accurate to 100 yards but in general, keep it to 50 yds or less.

I totally agree.

If all you want to shoot is round ball and hunt with it, I'd stick to a rifle or a rifled barrel trade gun.

Disagree. A smoothbore is all about distance. If you're hunting in open country, a rifle is a better choice. For close in shooting, either will work, with the smoothbore generally carrying a bigger ball (if that's important to you).

I can't talk about patch thickness, etc because I don't use them.

Mario

[IronDawg]

Consider a .62 cal round-bottom rifled barrel in a trade gun style. Sounds to me like you don't need a smoothie.

Omigod, did I just say that???

OH!! You did just say that!! And I'm sayin "why didn't I htink of that!?!?! Thats the ticket right there!

I got to watchin those beckum viedos last night and dadgum thats a pretty lil trad rifle he uses on one of em. Lock is fast on it too!

[hawkeye]

Another factor in accuracy is the fact that most smoothbores are individually, hand made. How the barrel is set in the stock plays a major role in accuracy. You didn't ask for a starting load, you asked for how accurate.  What's the harm in going out and finding out for yourself how accurate your gun is?  Just because someone can shoot 2" groups at 50yds with their fowler doesn't mean that you will ever be able to with yours.  My comment wasn't meant to be sarcastic or a put-down, but sometimes we have to get out from behind our computers and find out some things on our own.  How well you shoot your firelocks is one of them.

[hawkeye]

A smoothbore is all about distance. If you're hunting in open country, a rifle is a better choice. For close in shooting, either will work, with the smoothbore generally carrying a bigger ball (if that's important to you).

Mario

I totally agree Mario. Hunting with a smoothbore takes the same kinds of skill and patients as hunting with a bow. At least that's how I look at it.

[Three Hawks]

I own two smoothbores, a 28 ga built on a Belgian barrel made for the African Colonial trade and a .50 Smooth rifle that started life as a .45 T-C Seneca.  

The 28 ga. patterns 1/2 oz of #6 well enough to pop rabbits and grouse out to near 30 yards. It also patterns .530 patched roundballs into a 9" paper plate at 50.   Plenty good enough to make meat in the brushy area I hunt.

The .50 smooth rifle prints .480 patched round balls into a 6" bull at 50 yards.   Again plenty close enough to make meat.

Both are unique barrels.   One of a kind.  No others like them.  So comparisons are useless.   I also have a T-C Hawken with .50, .45 and .30 barrels fitted to the same stock.  All have loads I've worked up and all shoot about 2" groups at 50, opening to 4"-5" at 100.   I consider the .30 and  my .32 Crockett  to be in the same class as a .22 cartridge gun as far as game and plinking goes, pretty much 50 yd max.  Never shot the Crockett for groups yet, but no soda cracker has yet insulted me and lived to brag about it.

Three Hawks

[Dennis Neely]

With regards to the traditional hunting side of IronDawg's question:

When an individual takes to the field with any muzzle loading firearm, be it a smooth bore or a rifle, they have a responsibility to their quarry to spend range time learning both about the firearm they carry and their own personal abilities and limitations in using that particular gun.

We each have "acceptable standards" for hunting accuracy, which often change with the game pursued. The range time (please read that as multiple sessions) will point out at what distance performance drops below those standards, either due to the firearm, the given load or more often, the hunter's own physical ability. The resulting limitation is the hunter's personal "effective distance," which may increase or decrease over time with acquired knowledge, skill or deterioration in same.

For example, with my normal deer hunting load, a round ball discharged from 'Old Turkey Feathers,' my .62-caliber Northwest trade gun, will start "tailing off" at 85-90 yards (that distance being a function of powder charge). Therefore I prefer not to take a shot beyond 75 yards, the effective distance of the firearm--assuming I have a good rest, an unobstructed shooting lane, a good shot presentation from the game and my eyes are rested and focusing correctly. BUT those variables are not always present, so the limiting factor on my effective distance is ME, not the firearm or the load, and at times that effective distance can be substantially less than the 75 yard maximum. And please keep in mind that I've hunted exclusively with the same trade gun for thirty years.

My point is simply that in addition to Russ' comments about "your" firearm and it's developed load, YOUR ability to handle that firearm in a hunting situation is also a limiting factor.

Denny

[Longhunter]

I've been shooting Flintlock smoothbores for over 30 years, Flintlock rifles a lot longer than that. A rifle is a rifle but a smoothbore is a different breed of cat.....some of them are shooters and some of them are not. I've had smoothbores that shot a RB so far out of line that you had to use Kentucky windage to hit center. Some folks have been known to bend their barrels to make their gun shoot line. In the old days they say barrels were bent in the crotch of a tree to bring the shot into line. Over the years I've only had a couple guns that were that bad.

My first smoothbore was a 20ga Fowler made by Judson Brennan in 1976. Jud was and still is is one of the better gun makers in the Country. That 20ga was a beautiful gun but it didn't shoot a round ball worth a hoot. I sold that gun and Jud made me a12ga fowler. That gun with 80gr. 2FF behind a patched RB shot like a rifle out to 50yds. In the late 70's The Grand Valley Cap & Ballers club here in Michigan started having Trade Gun Matches. In those days there were not many shooting smoothbores so they let rifles shoot the round too, but not in competition with the smoothbores. I found  that the rifle guys really hated getting out scored by a smoothbore. The big round balls of a smoothbore has an advantage when it comes to cutting a string and shooting buttons off a board.

I still have "Ole Melon Buster" my 12 ga fowler. It has accounted for many deer and turkeys over the years.

I've got a 28ga smooth rifle, and a couple 20ga (.62's) One of my 20's "Ole Two-Fer" is a real shooter using 80gr 2FF and a patched RB

My "shooters" have no rear sight so looking down the barrel I line up the tang screw with the front bead, not seeing any of the barrel and hold center.

Here's "Two-Fer"
 

"Ole Melon Buster"

[Captchee]

Well I to must interject here.
 the NMLRA  rules of smoothbores having no rear sights is based on  near ZERO
 This includes those  we wish to call trade guns .
 In fact I would stretch to easily say that there are  probably = amounts  of originals with and without rear sights  not to mentions those that carry no rear sight but show signs of either once having one  or clear markings that show clear attempts to  install some kind of rear reference

  As to bending barrels . I have done it with smooth and with rifle barrels . I have done it on tiers m trees and  cable wheels .  . Kinda like Green eggs and ham .

Accuracy wise . I would agree with the 50 yards as a good distance . That being said , I know folks who shoot nothing but smooth bore . In fact they don’t even own a rifled bore .
 When it comes to paper under 25 yards or trail walks  they most times do very well and hold their own with the rifles .
 Myself I have never been so lucky and can only stand in wonder at what they  do .

 As to what works in like bore ?? Well  what works for me .  Most times  wont work  for another as well .
 Each bore has its own  likes .
 Now you might  get something in the general area  but , muzzleloading is not center fire  .  Your not going to find a  book that’s going to tell you to do X and it will give you X .
 You can actually take two rifles , Exsactly the same . Loaded with the same  load, same patch , same size ball . Using the same cap  and same size of nipple . Fire them both through a crono  and come out with two different  velocities .
 Even the Lyman carts are not set in stone . But just averages .
 The reason there is to many variables .
  Inconsistency in powder charges  or powder itself ,  pressures ,  barrel inconsistencies  in cutting bedding , material , harmonics , patch differences , ball differences. Flash hole , nipple , cap pressure differences . Stock differences , inletting differences . You name it and its there  , basically cause and effect   involved in each barrel and rifle ..
 Through the years I have known a lot of folks that try and challenge that .  But after years  of shooting ,  they all come to the same conclusion, each  gun has its own likes and dislikes . that’s the way of it .
 Folks can fight that  and try to prove otherwise . OR they can spend that time  properly working up a load for their  individual rifle . Half of one or a dozen of the other

[Capt. Jas.]

Captchee,
A well written post!

Barrel bending has been going on in
America at least as early as 1704. The indians were masterful at it to the point a white man remarked of their uncanny ability.

“Our Indian having this Day kill’d  good store of Provision with his Gun, he always shot with a single Ball, missing but two shoots in above forty; they being curious Artists in managing a Gun, to make it carry either Ball, or Shot true. When they have bought a Piece, and find it to shoot any Ways crooked, they take the Barrel out of the Stock, cutting a Notch in a Tree, wherein the set it straight, sometimes-shooting away above 100 Loads of Ammunition. Before they bring the Gun to shot according to their Mind.”

John Lawson, Gent. Surveyor-General of North Carolina, “A New Voyage to Carolina” January, 1701

[Captchee]

yep Capt Jas
  I have read that entry before .
 Ironically just  this last spring I bent a barrel on a long rifle  while at a shoot . You should have seen and heard the .Im not shooting that , your crazy !!!  + more  .
 but  after seeing  it done . most simply stated damdest thing i ever saw , who would have thunk it .

 The barrel was a 36 inch 45 cal .
 I had  actually owned the rifle at one time and new it shot true .
 I was standing  waiting my turn at a target when the fella in front of me  remarked that he had just bought the rifle , was new to muzzleloaders and that the PO said it would not shoot center without  the rear sight being where it was . That he  had shot it and  that’s where the rear sight needed to be .  I looked around the fella and there  was this old rifle that I had once owned . The rear sight was literally only maybe 25% into the dove tail .
 I knew the guy he bought if from  very well  and  he was there at the shoot . So I told the fella to take it back to him and tell him to bend the barrel so as he would not lose the rear sight  ,.
 He looks at me kinda odd  but headed off .
A few minutes latter he shows  up and say that   the PO had said to tell me , he want doing any such thing .
 So I offered to  true the barrel  for him .
 We walked back down to the sight in area . .  First I re set the rear sight so it was center of the barrel as it should have been .
 He fire 3 shots . At 25 yards she was 6 inches to the left .
 I took the barrel off . Stuck  it down in the center of one of the big  wood cable spools that  were used as tables .and I gave a big heave .
 Replace the barrel .
 But the guy would shoot it . Saying ahhh you cant do that !!!.
 So I shot it .  The group moved 1 inch . I took it out and heaved again .
 Buy this time  a group had formed to watch ..
 I just kept tweeking and bending tell the barrel once again shot single hole at 25 yards . A couple of time I actually had all my weight pulling the barrel . My feet were completely off the ground and im 250lbs  
 Now you would think that  the barrel would not fit back into the stock . that’s simply not the case . Each time it laid  perfectly .
 The fella  later that day   out shot me . Bumping me fro 2nd to 3rd . I told  him that  I had learned my lesson   and from then on he could fix his own rifle LOL .
 Who knows why the barrel became so far out ?? Could have been dropped  or had  things stacked on top of it  on a trip some time Who is to say . But it shoots true again now

[Minnesota Mike]

Great tale Cap.Thanks for sharing.

r/
MM

[hankaye]

Howdy Fellers,

Also a newbie, think that what everyone has to say has a very valid point.

However, I felt fustrated as the original poster surley has and if ya don't hear from him for awhile then that's probably why.

I think that all he was askin for was;

What can I expect from this smoothbore, nothing else. He didn't need to be talked to 'FROM ABOVE'.
He wanted to know, if he could expect to see reasonable accuracy from his new smoothbore.
He realized that he was going to have to find his own 'recipe for success' He was only askin what to expect...8" groups or 8' groups an at approximatly whay yardage...

If he stayed around long enough to read all of the posts, he might get a bit of an idea. Ya'll did give up a few points, 50 -75 yds. is about the max. fer solid accuracy, again depending on ALL of the variables, someone, said something about 2" groups, noted.

Ya'll couldda said that in a coupla sentences;

"Some have gotten 2" groups at X# of yds. and generally accuracy will deterate at 50 -75 yds. That's kinda what i feel he was lookin for.
 Not alot of YOU need to do , an YOUR smoothie will  *&&$%^ only after YOU do such an so.
DANG, has it been so long ago that ya'll forgot what it's like ta be the newbie?

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[IronDawg]

Ya know what?? THANKYOU HANKAYE!

Ya pretty much hit the nail on the head. When it comes to smoothbores, there is no ME shooting MY gun and what works best for ME and working up MY OWN LOAD.

There's no me doing all that becuase before me shells out in excess of a GRAND. I would like to have a general notion of what to expect..... yea..... an 8 inch group or 8 foot group and and roughly relatively rule of thumb what range??

Wasn't asking anyone to do my leg work for me, never have and never will. I've been involved in long range shooting and hunting for a long long time.....Heck man I "work up a load" for centerfires, I "work up a load" for a recurve bow, arrow broadhead and wieght combo. I'm very familiar with having to learn what works best for an individual...  I was simply asking  more experienced shooters to just give me a notion. Because according to the "if yo could only own one gun" thread. Many of you guys choose the smoothie. So for those that did offer me sound helping advice? Thankyou so very much! I truly apreciate it
 
For those that took my questions as me wanting someone else to tell me everything and define things for me?? I'm sorry, it was not meant to be taken that way... Ya got it wrong All I wanted was a general opinion of the smooth bores accuracy.

I burnt a pound of powder in two days through two rifles that already had perfect loads worked up for them last week. Why?? getting to know the guns a little better.  Woulda burnt more on day 2 but there comes a point in time where a metal butt plate on a 54 and only  T shirt between you start to effect accuracy.

And trust me I spend way more time out from behind this computer in the field than most do.

[mark davidson]

My thanks to Hankaye as well. My sentiments exactly. Irondawg, welcome to the blackeye club that I am seemingly the charter member of! :-)  Helping a new feller out with a little info on what to expect and where to start is not too much to ask but it does seem that there are several here just waiting by the keyboard to scold and tell a feller to shut up and go shoot instead of honestly trying to help. Then again there are dozens of others here with truly good hearts who have helped me way more than I can manage to say thanks for. Three years at this has seen me to this point with three custom flinters and a couple dozen solid kills with only two misses in the woods so I reckon I must spend a bit more time away from the computer than at it myself. This whole pursuit is made up of a big collective "WE" that stretches back a couple of hundred years and more helping eachother get started and stay involved.

[biliff]

I'm coming to the party a tad late, but FWIW...

We do have a shooting contest on this forum that includes a couple of us shooting smoothbores offhand at 25 and 50 yards. Print off one of the targets and take a look at what we're shooting at and look at some of the scores being shot for an idea of how we're doing. If I can put 5 shots on a sheet of typing paper shooting a flintlock trade gun at 50 yards they can't be all that terrible. Move it back to 100 yards and well.....