best kit for the money

[AxelP]

FYI --I own a Lehigh with a lot of drop in the stock. It makes for a different hold. Its a beautiful gun but its different to shoot. Many folks dont like it.

With a lower drop, any kind of shooting in a prone position is not good... even aiming high in the trees is a bit of a challenge with a gun that sports a lot of drop. Dont get me wrong, I love my lehigh, but it was simply not designed for that kind of hold. Its fine for offhand, and on a knee, sitting with cross sticks, whatever, but the extreme angles are a no go.

Hope this helps

[flintlock62]

The choice is definately yours on the amount of stock drop.  Bedford rifles are considered by many, among the best of the best in rifle styling.  They also have some extremely ornate patch boxes and are slim designed rifles to reduce weight.

The purpose of the big drop on the Bedford is that one holds his head straight up instead of bending the head down to see the sights.

You can find books on the Bedford County rifle.  One is called "The Makers of Bedford County Rifles", The author I do not remember, but there are some mighty fine examples.  I chose the William Defibaugh school for my rifle.

As far as shooting squirrels, I find that it works perfectly when aiming high up on a tree limb.  The big stock drop on the Bedford allows me to set my sights much quicker.

[Capt. Jas.]

"drop" is actually taken in two areas.
1. Drop at the nose of comb (most important)
2. drop at heel
These two measurements create a third measurement that is taken at the drop at face or cheek (where the cheekbone rests on the comb)
If you are hovering over the comb to see the sights without your cheekbone resting on the comb or are having to scrunch down hard on the comb to get the sights to line up, the gun does not fit.

Some "schools" of architecture really don't fit anyone, they just adjust to the gun in all sorts of contortions. This is much easier to do with the aiming of a rifle as opposed to a shotgun but a rifle can and should also fit.

Having the head more erect can be a nice feature but just by adding drop at heel without paying more attention to the drop at comb nose will create a monster.

All stock measurements are taken and based on a pre-chosen length of pull. LOP is the least important measurement as long as comfortable but all other more critical measurements are based on it.

You can take any gun you have that feels good in the LOP and take the measurements from that . You can build up the comb if needed with
moleskin, cardboard, electrical tape, etc. til it fits.

Something like Jim Chambers' early Lancaster pattern is usually a conservative set of dimensions of fitting a large group of people.(I am not one of them. I would need to add 1/4" at the nose of comb)
Trigger Pull: 13 3/4" to 14"
Drop At Heel: 2 3/4"
Butt Width: 2 1/16"
Drop At Comb: 1 1/2"
Butt Height: 5"
Cast Off: 1/4"

Cheers
James

[shademtman]

yes i agree with the drop at the comb and drop at the heel....and the thoughts about having to scrunch your face down to the stock....but actually i have built enough rifle stocks to know that on average....notice i said average....that given an average size man...there is only slight variations.. in making a rifle stock fit....there is simply NOT inches of variation between one person to the next that goes for length of pull...drop at heel ...or drop...at comb...on an average sized man the changes made are usually minor...for example a full grown man on a standard modern  rifle stock will be 131/2" to 14" a youth model will be 13" possibly 121/2"  for some reason or another muzzleloading rifles have traditionally been a little longer, and drop at heel ect... is a bit more...in some cases way more...hence my question on the pro's and cons of alot of drop vs say 23/4

[Capt. Jas.]

You are correct shademtman. Measurement variations are minor but the effects can be major in fit.  With a rifle though, most seem to make those adjustments to the nonfitting gun when sighting.
Most all the population can be fit using a LOP between 12.5 to 15.5 inches (3" variation) and building off of those.

I am sure you already know this with your stock building experience but as far as drop at heel from 2 3/4 to the extreme...
the more the heel and nose differ , the greater the incline angle, the greater the felt recoil.

Modern monte carlo rifle stocks for scopes and trap gun stocks drop the heel to allow an upright shooting style and raise the comb to fit the cheek but eliminate the drastic angle by stepping the stock or using mechanical devices.

[shademtman]

very good point...."the more the incline angle...the more the felt recoil".....i couldn't agree more...though black powder does not generate as much recoil as modern smokeless...per volume...still something to consider in stock design and fit...thanks

[Captchee]

its not that it doesn’t generate it  as much as its different .
 My 12 gage SXS kick just as had as any smokless 12 gage SXS .
 But the recoil is a push not a  back ,up and over  like smokless .

 This is why even with a heavy load , you can just rst the forearm in you have like a recoilless .
 No need to choke it .

 The other thing with steep drops is that  the  recoil has to travel down the wrist at a more steep angle so   not only do you feel more , but you also place the wrist area under a higher load . Thus making it even more important that the grain   of the wood , flow properly  through that area

[Old Salt]

 i think i'll probably go with the 42" barrel....i do like the lancaster style rifles....although  i am somewhat partial to the iron hardware look....i think most lancaster style rifles featured somewhat elaborate patchboxes...didn't they?...also the lancaster has a straighter stock  (less drop)    

Shademtman,

It's entirely possible that I am mistaken but I think the early Lancaster would have been more common with a wooden patch box while the late Lancaster would have been more common with a brass patch box.  

I think you are right that the lines on Lancaster rifles are straight meaning the lower butt and upper butt lines are straight.  And if you follow those lines to an intersection they will converge near the tang.  I'm not sure if drop is part of that.  

Other styles of rifle will show a distinct curve along the lower butt line, or sometimes curved upper and lower lines.

I'm hoping somebody with a clearer understanding will add a comment or two if I'm mistaken.

Salt

[tg]

"I think you are right that the lines on Lancaster rifles are straight meaning the lower butt and upper butt lines are straight. And if you follow those lines to an intersection they will converge near the tang."

 That is how the one I did was layed out, the cheek piece was also defined by the lines of the radius that was centered at the rear lock bolt if I recall, but that is the general idea, a wide single piece brass box would also be Ok for an Early Lancaster, one needs to define what is "early" on the particular build for lock choice and wrist width/height features and buttstock width/ straightness many use the Siler which most would say puts it 1770 at the earliest, like most early guns there is not much to go by but generalities common to early guns if meant to be pre 1770. Many consider anything pre 1780 as early some go with pre Rev War as the cutoff so to speak. I do not think there is a hard fast "rule" here.

[Old Salt]

TG,

Thanks for clarifying the layout.  l see now the lines do converge on the rear lock bolt.  

Shademtman,

Choosing an early Lancaster allows you to choose between many suppliers.  I'll throw Wayne Dunlap of Dunlaps Woodcrafts into the mix with one of his Isaac Haines component sets.    

Salt

[shademtman]

well have finally decided on the early lancaster....wooden patch box....best prices seem to be....pectonica river...459.25 ...or  Jedediah starr trading company....neither of which, i have ever dealt with, so could use some opinions.

[Captchee]

i would make sure the price includes the stock
Dic on pecatoncia river  lists a price without a stock . reson for this is that you  can chose the grade of stock  which can be anywhere between 50.00 and 200.00

[jtwodogs]

I am definitley a newbie and have no Knowledge in who makes the best kit.

The reason I am posting here is that some time ago, I was reading about a guy who offered (For people that wanted to learn}, a week at a place I believe it was in Virginia a place "Stone" something I believe it was a civil war battlefield. Anywho there was a flat rate price that paid for your room and board for a week and it also paid for a chambers kit, and the class on how to build the kit, pretty long days, but at the end of the week you had a pretty much finished rifle. If anyone is familiar with this please put that info out there, because if it is still available I myself am thinking about doing it sometime. I think the price was very reasonable, at the time I was reading about it I remember thinking that at that price it would have been nice just to have the class but you also got the rifle.
Thanks

[nessy357]

I ordered a  Lancaster kit from Pecatonica, Dick  said it would take a while ? it was 3 months ? after I received it , noticed the trigger guard and butt plate were wrong, that took another 6 weeks  to replace ? Their quality is excellent, but I would never deal with them again.
Cheers Bob.

[Old Salt]

well have finally decided on the early lancaster....wooden patch box....best prices seem to be....pectonica river...459.25 ...or  Jedediah starr trading company....neither of which, i have ever dealt with, so could use some opinions.

Judging by the photos on the web sites they look like the same parts set.  

I'd be tempted to ask the Jebediah Star sales rep where they get thier kits from.

Salt