Your TMA Officers and Board of Directors
Support the TMA! ~ Traditional Muzzleloaders ~ The TMA is here for YOU!
*** JOIN in on the TMA 2024 POSTAL MATCH *** it's FREE for ALL !

For TMA related products, please check out the new TMA Store !

The Flintlock Paper

*** Folk Firearms Collective Videos ***



Author Topic: New Pan Powder Substitute  (Read 3182 times)

Offline Longhunter

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1853
    • http://www.shrewbows.com
  • TMA Member: Charter Member #54 Expires 03/26/2019
(No subject)
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2010, 12:32:10 AM »
Quote
I can envision the day when real bp sales to private individuals will be prohibited .

That's why I'm stockin up... :hey-hey
Ron LaClair
TMA Charter member #54 Valid until 03-26-2019

RON_LACLAIR.html

TMA, Keeping the traditional spirit alive by example

When the deer are gone I will hunt mice, for I am a hunter

Offline snake eyes

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2089
    • http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.com
  • TMA Member: 10
(No subject)
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2010, 07:17:23 AM »
Quote from: "Longhunter"
Quote
I can envision the day when real bp sales to private individuals will be prohibited .

That's why I'm stockin up... ;)
Erin Go Bragh
TMA Co -Founder & Charter member #10 to   7/1/2019
Ohio TMA State Rep[/color]
Life member: NAHC
Life member: NRA
Member: Columbus M/L GC

"If you come to a fork in the road....take it!"
    Yogi Berra

Offline flintlock62

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44
(No subject)
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2010, 10:09:00 AM »
I have read about the flash powder , but you can buy a pound of the rifle grade stuff for $30 for 11 ounces and crush it in your fingers before placing it in the pan., so says the guy at Black Mag.  I still have not purchased or tested it.  You are also supposed to greatly reduce your main powder charge and half the barrel pressure with the same velocity as BP, according to them.

It is ascorbic acid based and is allegedly totally none corrosive.
Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.  - George Washington

Polititions and diapers need be changed often, and for the same reason.

Offline Captchee

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6215
(No subject)
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2010, 10:31:50 AM »
. This is going to be a long post folks . Ill do my best to  spell correctly  so as to get my point across .


 Ever one of these powder things is a gimmick and a play on words so as to make something legal that would other wise be illegal  OR at the very least  not appealing  to those being marketed
 Lets break this down  into  parts

 
Quote
the new powder is the first blackpowder replacement specifically designed for the flash pan in flintlock muzzleloaders

 WOW that sounds great doesn’t it folks . However notice later on they contradict their words by stating the size is of 3F but it is not intended for use as a main charge .
Quote
The granulation size of "Flash," 40 to 50 microns in size, is comparable to FFFG blackpowder and is designed to optimize ignition in both old and new style flintlock flash pans with varying flash hole sizes. "Flash" is designed solely as a priming powder in flintlock muzzleloaders, and should not be used in the bore as a primary charge.

 Now ask yourself just how that can be  if it it’s a replacement ..
 See  what they are doing is playing a wording game . That word replacement is key . It has to be there

 Lets go on

Quote
Like BlackMag XP, "Flash" is non-hygroscopic, is moisture resistant and is actually recoverable after exposure to moisture

 Anyone else find this a contradiction ?
 If the powder is “ non-hygroscopic” you should never have to worry about recovering it after  exposure to Moisture .  Also notice , they did not say WATER , but Moisture .

Quote
has a low ignition temperature to ensure faster, sure-fire ignitions and is non-fouling, is non corrosive, non-toxic and biodegradeable.

 Why is it that BP is now classified as a class 1 explosive and  these new synthetic powders are classified as  propellants ?   Mind you  that classification is why  for many folks BP is harder to get then any of the synthetics . It is also why  you pay a hazemate fee . It is also why the Fed , as well as many States  have  place  completely obscured restrictions .
Two real reasons
a) ignition temperature
b)   rate of burn
 So   if the first part of their  statement is actually true  , then the powder has a lower ignition temp , equal to BP . And it also has a higher burn rate , equal to BP .
 So now I ask you  is it or is it not also then an explosive.  Which will in turn make it just as hard  and costly to get as BP  . This classification is also  what  Goex was fighting  not to long ago .
Simply put  the re classification was  for no other reason then  fear  or  something people could make bombs  with .  But the simple mater of fact is that ANY of these synthetics  when confined  and ignited , will in turn produce the  very same explosive result as BP

 As to the non-fouling, non corrosive, non-toxic and biodegradable., part .

 For the most part  this again goes back to the first  statement about being a replacement
. We have to understand a  couple thing . BP  by its nature is not that efficient .  Basically when ignited , it  converts around 50% of its weight , to  gas thus producing pressure . The  other 50% is  just  residue that’s either  blow out of the barrel or  stays  in the barrel as fouling .

 When these synthetic companies  market their product .  They have to  say less fouling . The reason is , is that’s a major concern for a large % of the modern market . They simply don’t like cleaning .
 But is the statement truthful ?
 For the most part like with T7  and Pyro ,,,,, no its again a play on words .
 Why because both those powders also only convert about 50% of there weight.

So how is it that they can claim they burn cleaner ?
 Remember that “ replacement “ word .  While they may be  a  close in the pressure the produce . Close in the fact that they can be measured by volume . They are not close in the actual weight of the powder  . So in reality  its cleaner because your using less  powder  by weight .  Less powder means  that even  if  the powder still only  converts 50% of its weight . There is less to  be left as fouling .


non corrosive, non-toxic and biodegradable ???

 I have yet to see the non corrosive statements of any of these powders hold up . They simply are corrosive  in a different way . Either by the chemical make up  or  by  drawing moisture . Or by  the  break down of  those chemicals  as the powder ages .

 Fi folks spend some time  reading  the modern folks experiences with many of these new powder . Something becomes apparent. The powders often times become less  viable as they age . Sometimes producing nothing more then  sparklers  or  a slow moving , burning marshmallow type of   load .
 This is why  some of these products also carry an exasperation date  .

 Anyone ever seen an exasperation date on BP ?

 This last part simply infuriates me
Quote
"We realize in today's muzzleloading market the number of flintlocks used is comparatively small," says Craig Sanborn, President and CEO of BlackMag Industries. "But it is an important and dedicated fraternity, and with blackpowder becoming increasingly difficult to find we wanted to provide a reliable and viable alternative."

 Why ?
 Because no company ,, again NO company  is going to produce a product for a  small section of their market base . If they do not feel they can get an adequate return on their investment.
 It has NOTHING to do with  being a important part of anything . It has to do with money .
 So companies  put out wording like this  so people will get that  worm fuzzy feeling  and say ; AHHHH look what they are doing for us , how nice of them  

 But as  is the case  with most all these powder . It shows in the price .
 BH 209 is one of the newest , for lack of a better description “ god powder “ that’s hit the market .
 For those of you who are paying 20+ a lb for true black . BH209 going to set you back 35-40  a lb .
 Why so much ?????
 Same with this  flash powder . If the companies above statement was true ,  why the high cost ?
 Right now im paying 11.00 a lb for all grades of powder . That  cannon ---4F. And I know for a fact that the  person is still making 2.00 a lb  on the powder
 1 can of 4 F will last me around a year .
 For the cost of  1 lb of this powder , I can buy 50 lbs of black powder .

 But see folks  despite that  warm fuzzy feeling the company is trying to  give you . The simple mater of fact is , this company is not marketing this product for you and I .
 The are marketing  for  a modern market , who is willing to pay  25.00 for 12  conicals . 30-50 a lb for   a lb of powder that will last them , sometimes times longer then they will own the rifle .

 So while some of us may say “ its about time “  I have to ask , about time for what ? For  the very same sickness of greed , that’s  infected the modern  muzzle loading  sport , to effect  the traditional side ?

 Lets talk about that for a second here .
  One of the  greatest things  about traditional muzzle loading  is that like Archery. For the person who is willing , there is nothing that  cannot be made with your own two hands .
 From  every last part of the gun , right down to the projectiles   and POWDER ..

 The knowledge and ability  is what is really being lost here
 Why , because of  the loss of self reliance .
 Case in point . The resent run on  ammunition.. Based around a  fear of lack of ability to  obtain that ammunition . Suddenly both the anti’s and the  pro gun world  realized that; HA   we don’t have to take away the guns , all we have to do is get rid of  or make the ammunition so costly  that people cant afford it  .
After all if you cant get shells . If you can reload what you have . That gun is nothing but a nice looking club  suited for nothing but looking at .
 There is no long any self-reliance left . You simply have to BUY what you need .
doesn’t mater if you’re a reloaded  or not . You , HAVE TO BUY.
 You  now rely on  someone or something that  can be taken away . Simply put  the ability  to adapt  has been  removed  without  people even knowing it

 Modern muzzle loading is  moving that same way . The numbers of folks who can cast their own bullets is   far smaller then the numbers of traditional shooters who do the same thing .
 Not to mention the numbers of rifles that   can  be shot with basic simple loads  is growing smaller and smaller .  If you doubt that .
 How many of you traditional cap lock shooters here , know how to make a Cap ?
 Many of us  that have been around muzzle loading for most of our lives  remember a time when you  folks  did that . Then came the  kits . Dixie used to market  a set of field pliers  and all the  components to produce your own caps . . Long gone now  isn’t it fellas
 How many  modern rifles ,  now being sold .  Use the #11 cap ?.
 For that mater how many of the modern powders now marketed  will consistently  ignite, using that cap .
 The number is getting fewer and fewer each year .

  But then we also have the lead banns  coming on hard .  This also will force folks to rely  on  companies to provide an alternative for projectiles  at a greatly increased cost ..
 Thank for one second what would happen id for some reason   the modern movement found they possibly  could not get powder  and modern bullets ????

  See the ability to be self sufficient has been slowly , without much notice , taken away  from most of them .  Thus without the ability to BUY . They , find themselves in the very same  boat as the  center fire folks .
 They have to have caps , they have to have powder , they have to have the modern bullets  that many of their rifles are now being built around

 So while  it may seem fantastic that a company is  trying to market an alternate  powder of the flintlock shooter . Myself I see that  as nothing but a way to increase the reliance  on  the BUY  .  While at the same time  the ability to increase costs  to the shooter . Which over time will reduce  the ability of the  public to be self reliant.

 There simply is no justification for  these costs  other then . If you  think you have no choice , you will pay the cost or  be removed from the  mathematical equation .

 IMO what we all should be doing is  say ; WAIT  why is it that companies can  produce  a product like this . That is no different then  and existing , long lasting product .  Yet not  have to comply with the same  restrictions that  has made the older product hard to get ??????

 We should be all standing up and saying LOOK   eather  define all these modern powders as also being explosives NOT propellants. OR   reduce the classification of  BP so that is  once again can set right along side these modern powders , in the very same stores that sell them .
  If we don’t  demand that justification  and support products  such as this one .
 Not only do we lose . But so do the generations of people  yet to come .

 Ok . Im don with my rant here . Sorry . I just had to get that off my chest
 Be safe     :cry:

Offline Longhunter

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1853
    • http://www.shrewbows.com
  • TMA Member: Charter Member #54 Expires 03/26/2019
(No subject)
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2010, 11:29:46 AM »
Good post Capt.... :clap
Ron LaClair
TMA Charter member #54 Valid until 03-26-2019

RON_LACLAIR.html

TMA, Keeping the traditional spirit alive by example

When the deer are gone I will hunt mice, for I am a hunter

Offline Gordon H.Kemp

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1767
(No subject)
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2010, 01:03:41 PM »
Captchee , has put into words , what the most of the older shooters who remember what it felt like to have much more freedoms then we have now. The example I tried to make on the purchase of dynamite , is exacyly what is happening with firearms , propellaens and other items it is nessasary to have to use our weapons . As was said by Capt. you don't have to take away the weapons themselves , just gain control of the items needed to use theae weapons and you can effectively make the weapons useless.fewer and rewer younger people think they can't reverse this trend , the truth is , it is possible ,  if we as individuals and groups stand up to the antis and demand our rights !
        It's my opinion that , as the number of folks such as Russ , Longhunter , Captchee my self and others in the 60 and older group die off there are fewer and fewer strong advocates to keep the desire for individual freedoms alive . I have  , as I'm sure many others here , become tired  , and feel we are fighting a losing barrle ! The one shinning light is the young people who have caught the spark of the importance of the individual freedoms we have under the Constitution and Bill of Rights .
        I feel that the salvation of these rights lies with thesr younger  folks ,  If the momentum of the antis gain ground  , and are not stopped . It's only a matter of time to the day we as a nation fall in line with England  , Austrailia  Germany and most of the other countrys of the wold . We as Americans will no longer be leaders in freedom , but followers into a society as discribed in George  Orwells' book 1984 .
Gordy
TMA Charter Member #144
Expires 3/14/2013

Offline flintlock62

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44
(No subject)
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2010, 01:33:33 PM »
captchee, great post! :toast  

Gordon, aint 60 yet , but close to it.  Many young people do not understand if we lose the 2nd ammendment, we will be slowly striped of all the others.
Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.  - George Washington

Polititions and diapers need be changed often, and for the same reason.

Offline Captchee

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6215
(No subject)
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2010, 03:00:05 PM »
guys ,  i wasn’t trying to make a political statement here . Im sorry its come across  that way .

Offline Trois Castors

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
(No subject)
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2010, 03:09:27 PM »
I didn't know you could make your own caps!
Jed"3Beavers"
Ontario Canada Provincial TMA Representative[/color]
TMA#272 till 09/01/16
Friends of the Voyageur
Saugeen Paddlers

Offline Gordon H.Kemp

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1767
(No subject)
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2010, 03:23:02 PM »
Captchee , I don't feel that what you wrote was  political in nature . I hope what was said by You Russ , myself and others here would br looked upon as an acessment of whats happening in the Traditional muzzleloader field . We didn't point the finger at any individuals or political parties , but tried to draw attention to what to look out for in general.  Just remember you can always tell when a politician is lieing (their lips move) oops! -- just couldn't help myself!!!
Gordy
TMA Charter Member #144
Expires 3/14/2013

Offline graybeard

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 22
(No subject)
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2010, 03:46:16 PM »
I'm  one of those taken in by Black Mag3 years ago.  They advertised that it would work just fine in a flinter!  I followed the instructions and found that it wouldn't.  Long delays, lots of misfires.  Emailed a couple of times asking if I was doing something wrong and never got an answer.  The stuff then was way more expensive than Pyrodex or Goex.  It did, however, clean up as advertised.  I shot it off in a caplock and took the pledge.  I notice Raychard in Muzzle Blasts loves Black Mag 3.  He would.  graybeard
"If a man ain't hunting or fishing he's just frittering his life away"--Rancid Crabtree

TMA Member #588
Expires 04/02/2013

Offline AxelP

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 451
(No subject)
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2010, 03:59:38 PM »
This is a good post for me because I am currently helping test/develop and eventually market a new product for TRADITIONAL MUZZLELOADERS. (more on that soon) It is going to be specifically designed and developed for slow-twist rifled barrels. And yes, this IS a very small market relatively speaking. But the makers of this new product are all outdoorsmen, hunters and fishermen, and they are honest when they say that they are not doing this to make a bazillion dollars. They are looking for a fair profit above the cost of production--thats it.

They are not trying to replace the old way---they are trying to preserve and protect the traditions we all cherish by offering a viable option. This is only a small part of their total business... they know well that they will not make any sort of great profit---they don't have to develop this new product---it is truly for the love of the sport that they are doing this.

I dont know much about this new powder sub at all... but....

So before you put the kabosh on some of these new products, I would maybe give them a phone call and talk a few minutes with the makers... Their marketing is always going to try to rope in the largest target audience-- that is what advertising is supposed to do---of course they want to sell to the modern Muzzleloader as well as the traditional--- thats just smart biz.

I doubt they are trying to replace blackpowder... they are simply trying to offer a substitute for those folks that cannot get or use BP for whatever reason. What would you rather do if you had to make the choice? stop doing what you love to do--completely? or adjust a bit and be able to still do the thing that makes your heart beat and put a smile on your face?

I live in the California Condor lead ban area... this means that I am facing this very kind of choice---right now.  And from what I read, there are areas all over the US (and the world) that are on the edge of this cliff. Fight for the right to keep blackpowder and lead!!!... but also be practical and look and cultivate the options so you can still do what you love if the worst happens...

Ken

Offline Captchee

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6215
(No subject)
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2010, 04:09:15 PM »
Yeppers , you sure can .
 i used to have a small set of pliers that was kinda like a hole punch ..
 The first kit I had  punched out a little 4 leaf clover . You folded the edges up  and then placed a drop of fulminate  on a dot of paper . Then place that into the cap .
 but like making powder ,  it became something that was to dangerous . and if  frankly it could be  very dangerous.  But we also used to ride our Bicycles  without helmets. Slept in homes that were painted with lead base paint  and god forbid , played with actual fireworks on the Forth of July  

 Then they came out with a  set that was all in one . . You simply punched  the  complete cap out of  a sheet .
 But basically this was like making  caps for a cap gun . Its still marked though not very popular . Its called a tap -o cap . A quick search and I see its still available . Here is a link to brownells
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=842064

and why is it  AxelP that these older products are so hard to get ????

 if you make a product that is a replacment for BP , koodo to you .
 but i ask you . if  it looks like a duck , acts like a duck , flies like a duck . should it not be treated as a duck ?

 so if  a product  is does the same thing as BP . has the same ignition temp  and produces the same pressures . should it not then have the very same  restrictions as BP ?
 if not why ????

  lets say your product  does all the above . why should it  be outside the restrictions  and easy to get . ?

Offline AxelP

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 451
(No subject)
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2010, 04:46:47 PM »
why indeed....thats a good point Captchee... obviously the substitute is not the same. But if it can approximate--come close? close enough? then its better than nothin right? I will be sure that with the new product I am helping to market, there will not be any exaggerations as to how close it is to the original... It is indeed close. But it will never be identical... There are compromises that are acceptable, and there are some that are not... the trick is to find the acceptable ones... that is, if you are in need of a substitute in the first place...

Offline Captchee

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6215
(No subject)
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2010, 05:11:59 PM »
Here is the problem .
BP does what it does because of  its make up .
A replacement , when placed in those conditions , must do the very same thing  or as you say close to it .
  So how close is acceptable ?
 Is the powder to be   high  enough in ignition temperature that you need a modern rifle cap to set it of ?

OK  I can accept that . But we also must accept that  at some point , its no longer  true to any real base .
 If we are not supporting that base then what are we supporting ,,, shooting ?
 Again , I can accept that . But as we move farther and farther away from that original base . More and more of it is lost . More and more of the understanding is lost . More and more of the true history is lost . more and more of peoples aboility to be self reliant is lost . thus the day may come  when  that  powder  for what ever reason is also  no longer avalable .
 maybe someone deems it unsafe . now what ?  you wait for so me one to  sell you something new ? or you simple do without .  proclaiming that what you loved  is now dead  from no fault of our own .
 when in reality    its all  our fault

 Sure we can say ; But we are still shooting .

 Here is a comparison  for you . How many people know how to start a fire  with either flint and steel  or  with a wood bow ?
  In the last few years I have been greatly surprised at the numbers of  muzzle loading folks , I come across who  never have done either. They know it can be done .  That it was once done . But they  have never attempted it or know how .

 Why is that ? Basically because an easier  more convenient way   was marketed . Thus the old way and old knowledge  for many , is simply lost . For those people , I honestly think they would set in the cold an freeze to death for want of a fire . Even if  you laid  the needed tools  within their view .

  Top that off with  a fear  of that knowledge .
 A couple years back  I and some friends were ask to put on a class for a local school .
 I did  the fire starting and showed  both processes .
 After the first class  went through , the  district supernatant came to me and said to drop the   fire starting instruction . .
 He stated that they felt it was hard enough to teach kids not to play with matches , without having  them running around  trying to  get rocks to spark  or sticks to glow .

 To say I was simply dumb founded would be an understatement.

 Talk to  Black smiths  who have  put on demonstrations.  You just might be surprised at the number  of them who have stories about  even adults who  stick their hands into the coals    claiming  its fake .


 Both the above  case are based on the same thing . Something new came along and  the knowledge of old , was lost .

 don’t get me wrong , im not against the new . I just think that if the new is going to  be so close to  the original , then it should be treated just like the original .

 Again BP has become had to get because its  classified as an explosive.
 If this new powder  is  so easily ignighted  that it will go off from the sparks of a flintlock  . If  its ignition creates  a burn fast enough to propel  hot gas and flame into the touch hole . Mind you hot enough to even set of  modern  synthetics .  Which many times  even Priming a  pan with BP  will not do  if the main charge is  a synthetic .
 Then why is this new powder also not  classified as an explosive and just as hard to get as BP  is claimed to be , by many ??

A duck called by any other name is still a duck .
 But if you call a dog a duck  long enough . People forget what a duck really looks like

 if this powder is  sold openly and freely  without restrictions . then so should true BP
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 12:05:37 AM by Captchee »