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Author Topic: pan priming  (Read 2014 times)

Offline Ironhand

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« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2010, 09:27:42 AM »
I am not going to get into the min vs max or banked vs full questions but I will make one observation.

While information about grain volume of prime or pushes on a primer may be useful it is only helpful in context. We need to know not only the amount of the prime but the size of the lock.  

5 pushes on my primer will give about 1/2  pan in my trade gun lock but will pretty much overfill the little lock on my 32 rifle. I suspect that same volume would give very different results in these 2 very different locks
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Offline mark davidson

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« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2010, 10:18:30 AM »
Captchee or anybody else...I just got to ask (respectfully of course)...why the "pfffft" or disdain for the scientific test results? The tests seemed to be imperical and irrefutable and one of the most exhaustive and conclusive tests on our passionate sport ever done! When I was very new here, those tests answered conclusively to me at least many, many questions that I needed answered to get me started and quickly to a proficient point in my flintlock journey. I found the test results to be very valid in my own crude experimentation.  Now it seems like those results and that data is by some or many being kinda blown off as invalid or irrelevant. Is there a better test? Does someone else have better data or more conclusive evidence of what works best? If so I am all ears.

Offline Riley/MN

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« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2010, 10:41:59 AM »
I'm not captchee, so not answering for him, but I think any test done gives you test results relevant to that gun, that powder, that lock, etc.....

As you can see, there is just too many variables for a test result to be totally relevant to You, Your gun, Your powder, Your lock, etc......

You may get to a good starting point using the results, but you will still have to see what works best for you & your situation,  IMO.
~Riley
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Offline Gordon H.Kemp

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« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2010, 11:03:37 AM »
Quote from: "mark davidson"
Captchee or anybody else...I just got to ask (respectfully of course)...why the "pfffft" or disdain for the scientific test results? The tests seemed to be imperical and irrefutable and one of the most exhaustive and conclusive tests on our passionate sport ever done! When I was very new here, those tests answered conclusively to me at least many, many questions that I needed answered to get me started and quickly to a proficient point in my flintlock journey. I found the test results to be very valid in my own crude experimentation.  Now it seems like those results and that data is by some or many being kinda blown off as invalid or irrelevant. Is there a better test? Does someone else have better data or more conclusive evidence of what works best? If so I am all ears.
 

        Mark , I think the tests were very enlightning , they confirmed some things I had suspected all along .  The only thing I would see that MIGHT make a difference  in the degree of accy. of the tests would be the influence of the size depth and shape of the the pan , the frizzen spring tension  , etc. and of corse the size and location of the TH . As I said the tests certainly indicated to me , that if the design of the fireing channel is correct  , there is no need to "bank" the prime away from the TH. and , to me , it indicates that its not important that a person  use a certain number of pumps on their pan primer . But , like many such things in muzzleloading , its a personal opinion that  one pump or several works best in their gun. So for the most part , I think there is little argument that the test arn"t valid , just that there might be other varibles that would have an effect on the results .  :)
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Offline Dphariss

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« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2010, 11:06:39 AM »
Quote from: "Riley/MN"
I'm not captchee, so not answering for him, but I think any test done gives you test results relevant to that gun, that powder, that lock, etc.....

As you can see, there is just too many variables for a test result to be totally relevant to You, Your gun, Your powder, Your lock, etc......

You may get to a good starting point using the results, but you will still have to see what works best for you & your situation,  IMO.

Larry has tested just about every lock on the market in one way or another. High speed photography is just part of it and will give not only lock times but what actually occurs when the lock fires like the frizzen rebound breaking flints.
He found, for example, that a modified small Siler was the second fastest and the fastest was an original Manton.
He found that FFFF lights faster and builds HEAT faster than FF of FFF. This is a no brainer SINCE THE GRAINS ARE SMALLER and BP is a SURFACE BURNING propellant. Finer the grains the faster they burn 5 grains of FFFF has about 4 times the surface area of 5 grains of FF. But some folks want to believe what they want to believe regardless.

Larry has tested a number of different breeches and vents as well. I sent him parts that allowed testing 4-5 different vents and three different breech designs. Flat, cupped and Nock antechambered.
So someone assuming that his gun is somehow special and the tests are not valid for his gun is almost surely flawed thinking. Most of the variables have been covered. This testing has been going on for YEARS. Its not a weekend in the garage thing and its ongoing.

Dan

Offline Riley/MN

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« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2010, 11:13:03 AM »
not trying to be argumentative... but how many small silers did he test, and how many original mantons? I do think any research done in this area is worth doing, I just think there are a lot of variables, even from lock to lock of the same manufacturer.....



Of course everything I say about flintlocks is speculation, as I am not a flintlock shooter yet.....
~Riley
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Offline greyhunter

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« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2010, 04:49:00 PM »
Jeez, just when we are all feeling warm and fuzzy in our splendid ignorance and superstition some one has to lay all our beliefs to rest. I won't disparage any scientific tests or results, I'm not qualified to, what I do consider myself an expert in is internal combustion engines. Having wrenched on a hellofa lot of em since 1967 I can tell you each engine likes it's own tune. If all rifles are  exactly manufactured the same then I guess this a poor analogy and I apologize for introducing it to the mix. I'm sorry, I didn't look at the films tests etc. so like I said I won't pfft on them, I don't need em to make my gun work.  ;)
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Offline Captchee

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« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2010, 05:34:23 PM »
Good afternoon  gents
 Ok so here is why I say PFFFFT  to the tests .

 While I have no doubt that those  test show what they show . But one thing I learned many years ago  while testing weapons for the US Army is that  tests that  are done  in a controlled environment often times mean diddle when actually applied to a true field environment
 Same thing with  mathematical   equations.
 What works out good on paper   many times  is screwed up when actually applied practically.
Again this doesn’t always hold true but  often is .
 But its one of the reasons for field testing .
 Case in point .  Back in ?? 1985 my PLT tested the M249.
 We tested a batch of 20 . Of the 20  none met 100% of the standards FN stated they would .
 Now that wasn’t to say they did not perform. They did  and in fact our change recommendations were very small  .
 However they did exist and the  gun was sent back for modification  and as such it did not enter service until 1987   .
 What im getting at here is to  often  companies or people test 1 , 2 or 100  of a given  anything . Then claim  their findings to be 100% true all the time  . Yet when you put that item into actual use  it may or may not be true  as often as they thought it would

 While what Dan says maybe be true  about larry’s test . The case is that one can test 10 different locks  of the same type and  very few  will be the same.
 Even if they are all tuned exactly the same  the can and often do react differently .
a spring may be just alittle diffrent . a frizzen just alittle diffrent . sear engagment just alittle diffrent . a polishing job just alittle diffrent

 Now when you put that lock on a rifle and pack it out into the woods . Submitting the gun to YOUR  parameters. Things  act differently then when they were tested  in a controlled environment.
 This is why its always best for people to do what works best for them . The tests are fine , learn from them . But if you find that your own experience doesn’t match what the tests show  , one should not be suprised or dumbfounded .
 You have to learn what works best for your given rifle .

 Its just like Greyhunter is saying . Every engine manufacture builds their engines to a given standard  .  But when that engine gets out in the real world , one may   get 25 mpg and the next 19. Yet both were built to the same standards . Not to mention  the engineers designs , mathematics, quality control and yes even testing , says that they all should do exactly the same thing .    They should tune to the exact same settings and produce the exact same results . Yet in fact they don’t .
 Lets not forget that those folks are also testing 1000’s of the very same  item .  Yet very few end up being 100% the same  each one is in some way unique in and of itself .


  Here is  another example
  I hear all the time
= slow twist rates and deep rifling will not  shoot conical worth beans .  Testing proves it
= a RB will drop  X amount at 200 yards . The mathematics prove it
=  pans should be primed full , the test prove it
 

 Yet My main  rifle , I have owned for 20 years . It was built back in  the early 1970s .
 Is a 54 cal  C profile  hand made iron barrel  in a 1 in 70 twist  with round bottom rifling  .
  I burn  around 25-30lbs of powder a year through that rifle .
 It likes 80 grains of 3F , pillow ticking patches cut at the muzzle  and lubed with spit
  The rifle is zeroed at 100 yards . At 250 I hold  18 inchs high  and it will drop the ball true .
 I also know from my own test that the barrel does not throw a ball to a rainbow trajectory . I also know that if I bank the powder to the out side or fill the pan she will be slower in the ignition then if I  just put alittle prime in the pan and keep it away from the touchhole
 I can also tell you , That rifle will hold a 8 inch group  using 435  grain Branard Mini  at 100 yards off hand . .
She is a good rifle . I know her well .
So when someone tells me . Ha I read a test that said  if you do X its faster . To that I say . I have tried X and I find what I do is faster in this rifle .

 Now that’s my 2 cents .
So if you want to go by the tests . No mater who does them . Fine , more power to you. it may very well work good for you  .
 But in the end its nothing more then saying ; this is what works for me  your  findings may differ . ;)

Offline Gordon H.Kemp

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« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2010, 06:22:20 PM »
Grayhunter , Yeah , if we get too involved in the scientific end of our pursuits its kinda like being told theres no Santa :shock:     I worked as a truck and heavy eqquipment mechanic on a county highway dept. and some of the snow blowers and 20 ton rollers ,  went back to the 20s . Had bores that exceeded 5-1/2" and 6"   I enjoyed working on the old equipment  , sorta like the muzzleloaders we crave . they all have their own personality and all the tests in the world can"t  change that . :lol:
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