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Author Topic: Ball, patch, powder combination to start  (Read 2199 times)

Offline MrFox

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Ball, patch, powder combination to start
« on: January 20, 2011, 01:01:55 AM »
OK, now as I get a .50 caliber rifle, where do I go next? How can I learn which load my rifle likes most without buying every single product on the market?

Balls... I guess any .49 will do.
Patches... Which thickness to start with? I have .15 and .20 easily available at store near me, and .18 as a mail order. Is .15 too little and .20 too tight? OR should any be all right and I'd get one of those .15 (or .20) and go shooting?
Powder... I'd rather start with Black powder, not a Pyrodex (I heard some people said it's more corrosive than Powder). Is FFG or FFFG better place to start? I'd rather go with FFFG, since it's a hotter load for the same price and I might as well load less powder per shot. Are there any advantages for FFG though?

So, please tell me if I am correct or not.

Offline sse

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« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2011, 09:31:12 AM »
There aren't many "right" answers to your questions, since a lot of them are personal preference.

I used black powder exclusively in the .50 I used to have.  I used FFg and still do in my .54.  Some guys go with FFFg.  As far as performance differences between the two, I would have to defer to those who used both and chose one over the other for a specific reason.

I used to use T/C patches pre-lubed with bore butter.  Prhaps someone else will come along and give you a better option there.  Good luck.
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Offline rickevans

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« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2011, 09:45:04 AM »
Use FFg or FFFg in your .50 and start around 70 grs to load with. You can use some pre-lubed patches of .010 to start with too. See how they load and shoot. Once you get to know the rifle a little better, you can change the patch thickness and/or the load of powder to get the most out of your new rifle.

Are you brand new to blackpowder muzzleloading? Ask ANY THING you want here, you will find there are many centuries of experience to be shared.

Rick
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Offline Uncle Russ

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« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2011, 10:01:44 AM »
Welcome to the forum, MrFox
Good information from Rick and Jim....a good place to start is always a place that will allow you just a bit of flexibility, up or down....

I would think the suggestion of a .490 ball, .010 patch and 65 / 70gr FFFg Goex Real black powder will likely get you just about dead center of that so-called starting point, with very few or any adjustments needed or required, as only you and your rifle can determine exactly where that 'sweet spot' in your loading really lies.

Try it, you'll like it! :rt th

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Offline sse

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« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2011, 10:06:40 AM »
Uncle Rooskee, yer slippin...what is your recommended lube?  

Currently my fave is spit.
Regards, sse

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Online Bigsmoke

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Re: Ball, patch, powder combination to start
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2011, 10:14:37 AM »
Quote from: "MrFox"
OK, now as I get a .50 caliber rifle, where do I go next? How can I learn which load my rifle likes most without buying every single product on the market?

Sorry, you won't.  The only way to find out what your rifle likes best is to shoot it and find out.  Keep records.  Every target you fire, mark on it the ball diameter, patch, powder type and volume and kind of patch lube.

Balls... I guess any .49 will do.

Unless it prefers .495 or ,498.  typically, a tighter ball will work better than a looser, but a looser ball will load easier than a tighter.

Patches... Which thickness to start with? I have .15 and .20 easily available at store near me, and .18 as a mail order. Is .15 too little and .20 too tight? OR should any be all right and I'd get one of those .15 (or .20) and go shooting?

Again, try them each and see which the rifle likes.  It is just impossible to determine the answer to your question on the computer, you gotta get out and shoot it.

Powder... I'd rather start with Black powder, not a Pyrodex (I heard some people said it's more corrosive than Powder). Is FFG or FFFG better place to start? I'd rather go with FFFG, since it's a hotter load for the same price and I might as well load less powder per shot. Are there any advantages for FFG though?

Agreed, black powder is where it is at.  Synthetics should only be employed in a case of not being able to obtain the real thing.  Ffg vs Fffg is an age old debate.  And again, the answer is to got out and find out the rifle's preference by shooting it.  I prefer the coarser grade of powder as it seems to put less stress on the rifle.
So, please tell me if I am correct or not.

When I am getting to know a new rifle I will dedicate a day at the range.  I take a supply of targets with me, a Sharpie to write with, a pound of powder, a full bag of patches and a box of round ball and some patch lube, plus cleaning supplies, a measure marked in 5 grain increments and a good range rod.  I like to post the targets at 25 yards for two reasons, one is lack of atmospheric problems with short range shooting and two, my eyes see the target better at that range.

So, starting with a clean rifle that you have popped a couple of caps through to clear any oil out of the passageways, load the rifle with one grain of powder for each caliber.  So, in a .50 cal rifle, set the measure at 50 grains and load the rifle.  This is going to be a test for a particular ball patch lube combo, so do not change any of the other variables.  Shoot a three shot group at the target, off a solid bench rest.  Don't worry about sight settings at this point, unless you are not on the paper.  If not, adjust the sights to bring it on paper.  So, you have the first target shot with three rounds.  Retrieve it and post a fresh one.  Mark the target what the load was.  Some folks will also record the wind speed, direction, temperature, humidity and what they had for breakfast(if spit patching).  At this point, I would wipe the bore and pop another cap.
Ready for round two.  Increase the volume of the measure by five grains.  You are now at 55 grains for your .50 cal rifle.  Fire another 3 shots, retrieve, post, record, wipe barrel, etc.
Round three.  Increase the charge to 60 grains, etc.
Round four, increase the charge to .65 grains, etc.
Repeat this process up to the maximum charge advised by the manufacturer of the rifle.
OK, so now you have a collection of perforated targets to spread out in front of you.  As you are looking at them, you will see that at some point the grouping will start to tighten up.  They will get smaller and smaller until at one point, they will start to open up again.  Say that is at 80 grains.  So, your deduction is that at 80 grains of Ffg with a .015 patch, moose milk lube, CCI Magnum caps and GOEX FFG powder under a .490 ball, you have the most accurate load for the rifle.
Maybe.
The next step is, are you happy with that grouping?  If so, you are done.  Don't ever change your combination.  When you open a new can of powder, shoot a test group to make sure you are still where you want to be.  If you are not pleased with the results of your range session, then it is back at it with supplies to change ONE variable.  Say you want to try a thicker (or thinner) patch.  Go for the gusto, do your test firings again with that ONE variable changed.  Are the results better or worse?  Repeat as necessary.
The worst thing that you are going to do with this process is spend a day or two at the rifle range and get to know your rifle.  Not a bad deal.
Enjoy
John
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Offline Uncle Russ

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« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2011, 10:42:03 AM »
Quote from: "sse"
Uncle Rooskee, yer slippin...what is your recommended lube?  

Currently my fave is spit.

Jim Beau, I spent a life time chasin that "very best" lube and I do want to thank you for allowing me to elaborate a bit on this mystery of all mysteries...the elusive Great Lube.

Making and experimenting with 'homemade' lube has been a passionate side-line hobby for many of us old timers ever since we were just pups....we never miss an opportunity to try something new, something improved, and something better.

However, it turns out to be all in the finding of that new, improved, and better lube....you must first recognize it before you can lay claim to it and say it is indeed better.

I've played with everything from Crisco, to Bore Butter, to Natural 1000, to LeHigh Valley, to Emerts, to Moose Milk of a dozen different persuasions, to my very latest concoction, that was before now unnamed, but which I have just decided to name....

This new Miracle Lube is to be known as....
[size=150]Weaver Beaver[/size]

The Weaving Welshman and Beaverman had more than just a little input into it's formula so I thought the name to be appropriate. I'm still a bit at odds on exactly how much water is to be added to complete the process....but I'm very close.


Since it's final ingredients are still a bit in debate (at least inside my own head) I will just skip that part for now and say it's good stuff, real good stuff.

In the meantime, for MrFox, I would suggest he try Crisco, Natural 1000 (used exactly as the directions say, not just a dab on a patch)...... or plain old spit, spit patches are still a wonderful way to go and you can't go wrong using 'em.

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Offline rickevans

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« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2011, 10:42:05 AM »
Bigsmoke has said much goodness.  Plan to spend a whole morning or afternoon. Or all day. Bring a friend, a thermos of coffee and a Snickers Bar or two...Life at it's best.

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Offline Firewalker

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« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2011, 10:53:34 AM »
Quote from: "sse"
Currently my fave is spit.

Here in the northern climes spit sticks in the bore at freezing temps.  :lol:
Works great in the summer. Just wash the sizing out before you start chewing on patches. It tastes real bad.  :lol:
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Offline sse

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« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2011, 11:03:17 AM »
Back in the woods shooting paper or some such, the bore was never at ambient temp and after a few shots it warmed up pretty good.  When hunting I'll use a pre-lubed patch or go with crisco.

I use Oxyoke .018's, pre-cut.  There is an odd flavor to them so I hope it's not toxic or anything.  I do have some washed pillow ticking that I've never cut and tried, spose I could and see if the thickness is compatible.
Regards, sse

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Offline Gordon H.Kemp

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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2011, 11:49:58 AM »
After reading the answers from the other members , I believe the basic advice to be sound .Because you"ve posted under the caplock heading I"m assiming the rifle in question is NOT a flintlock .Even if it were the basic advice would be correct except for a coulple of added varibles in the ignition system . Because it is a caplock and not flint , you do have the option of using the sub (patooie) propellents.   my comment might indicate I"m not greatly impressed with them and would encourage you to start on your black powder journey with the real stuff. and by the way the subs will not function in flintlocks without much problems , and then not as well as real blackpowder .
 :)
      I would have to concur with the others here that one of the most important aspects of finding the "sweet spot'for both you and the rifle is to change only ONE varible at a time . Even after you get things to where it's doing well you"will no doubt decide to try to tweak it up some more. :lol: ;)
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Offline Firewalker

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« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2011, 12:45:38 PM »
I use a .490 ball and generic pillow ticking along with some type of lube. As Russ said thats a never ending quest for the perfect stuff.
Targets I use 70g 3f or 2f, whatefer I have the most of. For hunting I use 95g.
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Offline MrFox

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« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2011, 12:46:23 PM »
I thank everyone for advice and especially Master BigSmoke for his long and detailed post.

I was under impression that a thicker patch .015 or 0.020 is needed for tighter fit... But well if 0.010 is a good starting point, then that's what I am buying!

Online Sneakon

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« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2011, 01:02:21 PM »
Quote
Since it's final ingredients are still a bit in debate (at least inside my own head) I will just skip that part for now and say it's good stuff, real good stuff

Russ,
Don't forget to post the formula when you finalize ingredients.  I've been mixing the same mouse juice for too long now and would like to try something new.
Shining Times!
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Offline Uncle Russ

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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2011, 01:39:55 PM »
Quote from: "Sneakon"
Quote
Since it's final ingredients are still a bit in debate (at least inside my own head) I will just skip that part for now and say it's good stuff, real good stuff

Russ,
Don't forget to post the formula when you finalize ingredients.  I've been mixing the same mouse juice for too long now and would like to try something new.

Apparently every body in the world has been using this "Hoppes #9 Mouse Juice" except me and Sneakon...guess we need to get out more.

I can tell you it is very similar to many other Moose Milk formulas, with the exception of adding the Hoppes #9.

If you are anything like silly ol' me, you already spent a bloody fortune on everything from Dutch Schultz's formula to Mama Flinter's special Moose Milk and none of it really reaches that near perfect lube we are continually in search of.

Our own Bigsmoke sells a really good lube called "Just good lube" but I believe he use to call it ol' Thunder or some such....at one time I had a half-dozen cans, then I tried to make it better and things kinda went south on me....such foolish experiments can eventually become expensive.
Seems I have never learned to leave well enough alone!

Both Beaverman and Lynn feel that with this new concoction, or new to me at least,  they can actually shoot all day long with no wiping, or an occasional wiping at best. I'm sure there are others in the GRMM that use it also.

Still yet, as soon as I can get to the range I will post a report as I see it, complete with ingredients, on this #9 Mouse Juice that I somehow like to call Weaver Beaver...

That all day shootin thing has a great appeal to me!

Don't want to Hijack MrFox' thread, so perhaps this can serve a  purpose of warning him of the failures he might face in trying to re-invent the wheel....stick with the basics until you know your rifle inside and out.
There are lots of good lubes on the market, and they've been on the market for years.

Save this kind of thing for your retirement years, when you have lots of time and patience....along with the experience of recognizing a problem before it becomes a real problem.

And, there is absolutely no problem whatsoever with the many good, and even common lubes we have now.  
This lube making thing is a whole other dimension in muzzleloading, and not worth messin with until all the other variables have been worked out.

Uncle Russ...
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