Hawken Flintlocks?

[Muley]

Well, I took a vacation from this forum, but I see the thread lived on without me. After reading it again I sure was whining about the flintlock. Kind of embarrassing.  :|

[greyhunter]

Say hey Muley. Glad you're at it again. Just so you don't feel like the only one with a powder/pan leak. I fixed one for my friend by filing the frizzen true to the pan. And, as for gooey pan powder, no fix, that is the nature of black powder. When it does this on me, I leave the pan uncharged and stick a piece of cloth in the pan until I am ready to fire. Let us know how it goes when you get it!

[ridjrunr]

Muley, glad to hear yer givin it another go!
IMO, yer idea of 3F for both may very well work. I have never tried that but believe a couple people in my local club have been doing that with success for a while. Just remember,most all BP guns are different as to what they like to make them reliable. I would say also it's going to very between lock manufacturer as well, so it'll take some trial and error.
As far as the muddy pan issue. Hard to get away from. Change yer charge often.
As GH said you can fiddle with mating the surfaces of the pan to frizzen but go at it very slowly, it would be easy to make it worse if you take off too much material.
Good luck and let us know how things develope .

[rollingb]

Well, I took a vacation from this forum, but I see the thread lived on without me. After reading it again I sure was whining about the flintlock. Kind of embarrassing.  :|

I only use one powder in my flinters (rifles AND smoothbores) and that is Goex FFFG,.... as long as I keep the vent "picked" and change priming ever so often, very seldom do I ever have a problem with performance.

[45.70]

Muley,

I've been shooting flints for about 3 years or so and only use FFF for charge and pan, I've had good success so far.  But, it took about a year before I could make them shoot reliably and I still have a miss fire occasionally.  (The misfires are normally operator error)     Good luck with your flinter, once I got my two shooting good, I'm hooooked.  It's absolutely addicting.

Garry

[Muley]

If I can't get it this time. I'm going to blame the lock ( ), and fit a better lock to it. I was going to do that last time, but bailed out instead.

[Muley]

He's back from his hunt, and will be sending it to me on Monday. I need to order some BP.

Anybody try the Old Eynsford? It's only $1.00 more than the regular Goex.

[prairie dog]

I just re-read this thread and some thoughts came to mind.  First, I admire your tenacity and desire to master a flintlock.  

I've hunted with percussion guns for about 30 years and I've had a few misfires with them.  I had just about given up trying to kill a turkey.  A deer 60 - 70 yards out doesn't always spook at the sound of a hammer falling on a misfire, but a turkey at 25 yards doesn't give you a second chance.  However, I stuck with it, learned what was causing the occasional misfire, and corrected it.  

I was never very interested in flintlocks because I'd heard they were less reliable than a cap lock and that the quality of the lock on most production guns was poor at best.  I didn't think I wanted anything to do with a flint gun.

Three or four years ago I joined a muzzle loading gun club and begin to shoot in monthly matches.  I discovered a wealth of expertise and experience existed within the membership of this club.  Many of the members of the TMA also posses this same knowledge, experience, and willingness to share.  But for me, seeing it is better than talking about it.  

In any event, I have a neighbor and new best buddy who shoots in this club and hunts exclusively with flintlocks.  He and the other  flintlock shooters in the club have shown me that a flintlock properly loaded and cared for is very reliable.  The most impressive demonstration of flintlock shooting I have ever witnessed took place at the Frozen Foot Rendezvous in 2011.  It rained all day, all weekend.  One of the rifle targets required shooting your rifle held upside down, above your head, and hitting the target.  I don't remember how many shooters hit that target, but I do remember that every flintlock rifle went off without a single hang-fire or misfire.  Upside down, and in the rain no less.

What I have learned by watching these guys is that flintlocks are no less reliable.  They are  just more involved than percussion guns.  There are more items and details that have to be done right.  I've also noticed that all these guys are shooting custom rifles with locks from makers with a reputation for quality.

I purchased my flintlock Chief's gun a few months ago with confidence in the builder and knowing I had the benefit of the expertise of flintlock masters to guide me through the learning curve.  Without these guys to show me how, I would never have tried to learn to shoot a flintlock.

So far, I am getting along with my gun very well and it is becoming my favorite.  But I know that if I have problems with it there are several experts right next to me who are more than willing to show me how to solve that issue.

You mentioned moisture and dampness in the priming.  What I have been told is 4-f powder absorbs moisture faster than larger granulation.  My friend loads and primes all his flintlocks with 3-f.  When he hunts in damp weather or rain he keeps his vent plugged with a feather quill.  Just before the shot he removes the feather, wipes the frizzen and pan with a dry cloth, and primes with 2-f powder.  He says the 2-f powder is slower to absorb moisture and ignites just as easily if the lock is sparking properly.  I don't know about all that, but I do know I've seen him shoot in a heavy rain with his rifle upside down and it worked fine.

This past June I attended the Texas State muzzle loading competition.  Just down the line from me was a fellow shooting flintlocks and his guns had the fastest ignition of any flintlock shooter I have seen.  I had a chance to visit with him and he was more than willing to share his knowledge with me.  The most important thing I learned was that every flintlock has it's own particular variables.  For instance, where the priming powder is placed in the pan can effect the speed of ignition.  One lock fires faster if the powder is placed near the outside edge of the pan, another is faster with the powder placed in the center of the pan and another may perform best with the prime closer to the barrel.

I have been experimenting with my gun and some of these variables.  I've learned that it ignites fastest with a prime of 4-f placed in the center of the pan.  It also ignites faster with a load of 2-f than it does with a load of 3-f.  I think I understand why this is so, but it may only be so for my particular gun.

I no longer believe flintlocks are less reliable than percussion guns.  I have learned there are a lot more variables involved with loading and shooting flintlocks and the learning curve is tougher if you don't have someone to show you how it's done.

It's going to take some shooting and getting to know your flintlock before you get it all together.  These guys here are a good resource but the best advice is to find a club or group of flintlock shooters who have already got it figured out.  They will be more than happy to help out a new flintlock convert.

[Muley]

Thanks for the post Steve. I do understand i've got to put some time into figuring this out. Being retired. Time is something I have a lot of. I wish I had the money to match it.  

One thing though. I'm a still hunter, and I only hunt the dark timber. My dad taught me to hunt that way in the early 50's, and i've never had a desire to do it any other way.

I mention this, because my gun needs to be ready to fire at all times. A lot on my shots are quick, and I have no time to prime the pan. It's cock the hammer, shoulder, and shoot. Sometimes that's too slow.

That creates a problem with priming the pan just right. The prime is going to get moved around as i'm hunting. This is something I need to get worked out.

[Captchee]

first let me say ; very good post Steve .

Muley.
 myself im a  stalking type hunter  . The weather  here during the hunting seasons can range from hot and dry to  pouring rain , heavy fog  or blowing snow.
 It really is one of those areas where if you don’t like the weather right now , wait a few minutes and it will be completely different .
 I always have my rifle primed  regardless of the weather  and I  only prime with 4 F .
  In doing so there are some things I have  had to learn .
  1) always protect your lock no mater what the weather . I don’t use a cows knee  as I find them cumbersome and to hard to get off when a quick shot is  called for . What I do is carry the lock section up under my arm  or roll the  gun over so that the lock is down .
. If the day calls for still hunting then ill  grease the lid of the frizzen  just alittle . But at the same time  keep it protected
2) check your prime often . Its very easy to lose powder  while walking even if you have a tight fit frizzen . Also as Steve mentioned , 4F  draws moisture quicker then 3 or 2. So if my prime looks to be getting alittle damp , I dump it and re prime
3) I also have came to the very strong opinion that unlike a cap lock , if a flintlock doesn’t go off , its 99% of the time , shooter error . As such I take great pains to insure that  prior to  heading out , I check to make sure my flint is tight , positioned properly and sharp . That the frizzen is clean of all oils . I wipe it down  with a  fresh cleaning patch  then put that patch in my pocket or rifle pouch so I can  have something to wipe the frizzen with  throughout the day if I so feel the need .  I never wipe the frizzen face with my thumb or finger . I know some folks do  and it works for them . I guess my skin is just to oily as I have found It increases  ignition issues for me
4) I check my vent to insure that  there is powder there  and that the hole is not obstructed  

5) I  empty and replace the main charge every  day and never go out with an old load .  IE if I go back to camp  for lunch , ill then also replace my load with a fresh on and then re check everything before I head back out  

Steve also brought up feathering the touch hole .  Very seldom do I do that . But I have and it works .    I actually went to an even one time where we had to cross a river  and then fire at a target on the far bank . One of the fellas  slipped and went under with his rifle . Luckily he had his touch hole feathered and when he came out on the far bank , he simply dumped the water out of his bore . Wiped his pan dry . Re primed and fired . The gun went off without a hitch ..

a lot of people also think that moisture can  foul the main charge by  going down the barrel . IMO this is only true if your shooting a conical .  With a PRB its pretty darn hard for the water to get past the patch .
 That leaves only the vent as a source . .

But again this all comes back to two things .
 A)You knowing what your gun likes
B) you doing your part .

[sse]

What a great thread, and great comments from pd and cap, as usual...my perspective is that of a future owner of a flinter, participant, observer and official of shoots where both the cappers and flinters were in use...and this during a variety of weather conditions.

Some fellas never experienced a misfire, but most had occasional or regular misfires, and some of those had to quit the shoot.  I always knew that there was something that those guys weren't looking after, and as mentioned, the reasons always seemed to be a mystery.  So, it was a simple matter of not having the awareness of the idiosyncrasies that were to blame.  And as suggested by many comments here, that awareness does not come easy, though I'm sure some have a knack for learning or improvising to get reliable ignition.  Plus, the problem could be a combination of factors, with the causes and solutions unfathomable to the shooter.  Even for the experienced shooter, he can step up to lend a hand or try a few things to see what happens, but he really has no idea what is going on with that particular lock.  Lastly, the lock mechanism may not be functioning properly or is just defective or of a lesser quality than is needed to produce reliable ignition.

In general, these types of challenges are the reason most of us enjoy shooting traditional so much.   But not all shooters like having to deal with these issues or have to patience or desire to overcome them, at least that is what I see on the line.

[Muley]

Getting him to ship the gun is like pulling teeth. He promised he'll do it Monday. Hope so.

I spent most of my money buying the gun. So, it will take me awhile to get everything I need to shoot it. Good thing it's the middle of winter.

I need powder, bag, horn, powder measure, touch hole pick, flints, napper, balls, patches, ball puller, and cleaning patches. What am I forgetting?

I sold everything, so I have to start over again.

Oh, I need to get GPR primitive rear sight too. It has a Lyman 57 GPR peep sight on it now, and it looks just wrong. Too modern and bulky. I'm as blind as a bat, but i'll just get closer, and use proper sights.

[ridjrunr]

What cal. Is your new one?

[Muley]

It's a .54. Better for elk.

[45.70]

Muley,

I took out my flintlock .62 cal. trade gun to do some squirrel hunting over T day weekend and had a misfire with her.  After a few years working on the range and killing a hog with this gun I still got caught up in the moment and forgot to take the frizzen cover off before I shot at a squirrel.  After I heard the clunck and didn't hear a boom, I looked down and had to laugh at myself.  Luckily the squirrel didn't go far and I was able to bring him to the ground.  I just had to relay this to you because the flint guns are a lot of fun and reading some of your earlier post, I thought you might have a good laugh.  Good luck with your new rifle and happy hunting!

v/r  Garry