Caplock

[Carolina Joe]

I have a question for you gals and gents, I purchased a caplock form Sitting Fox Custom Muzzleloaders. I was wondering if I am able to use black powder subsititue such Triple Seven or Pyrodex? The rilfle is a Southern Mountain Bean Style 50 Cal. All sugestions will be greatly appreciated it. Thank you.

[forest]

Carolina Joe:
 Personaly I would feed it holy black, but you could try 777 or some of the others.

[RiverCat]

777, Pyrodex, or any of the other black powder substitutes sold for USE IN MUZZLELOADERS will be safe to use in your gun. The powder pellets the inline guys use, are for inlines though and won`t ignite reliably in traditional sidelock type guns.

That said, in my opinion traditional muzzleloaders were designed to use real black powder like GOEX, and that is what they should be fed if you can find any in your area. The real stuff ignites at a much lower temperature than any of the substitute powders and in my experience gives the most reliable ignition in sidelock guns.

If you can`t find any black powder locally, you could also order it online but you`ll have to pay a hazmat fee to have it shipped and it can be kinda expensive if you only want to buy a pound or two. Really it boils down to being your choice. The substitute powders will work, and are easier to find in most areas. But real black powder will most likely give you quicker and more reliable ignition and is the traditional and most correct powder for your type of gun.

[Carolina Joe]

Thanks guys, Have another question, Goex and other brands of gun powder are hard to come by here in my area. What would be a good starting charge for the 50 cal.? I will be shooting deer size game and hogs. I might get a chance to take down an Orxy if I get drawn for the lottery. Thanks once again.

[Gambia]

Thanks guys, Have another question, Goex and other brands of gun powder are hard to come by here in my area. What would be a good starting charge for the 50 cal.? I will be shooting deer size game and hogs. I might get a chance to take down an Orxy if I get drawn for the lottery. Thanks once again.

If I could not get Goex or any other traditional black powder then Triple 7 would be my choice.  Starting load for a 50 caliber would be 50 grains, then work up an accurate load from there in 5 grain increments.

[RiverCat]

Bull`s method of starting with a load equal to the caliber of your gun and going up five grains at a time is good info and is the way most guys go about working up a load for a muzzleloading rifle.  Use it to find out how your rifle will group with different loads.

For hunting the game you have in mind I would want more push than a 50 grain load though. The load I use for deer hunting in my .50cal rifle is 75grains of Goex 3f black powder. My particular rifle actually shoots best on paper with a 60grain load, but still holds hunting acceptable groups with more powder.  You just have to see what your indivdual rifle will do and make your load choice based on the groups you see on the target paper. Choose your hunting load based on a decent compromise of velocity vs. accuracy. Unless you get lucky and have a barrel that will shoot best with loads on the hotter end of the scale.

You didn`t say what you plan on using for a projectile? I`m assuming a patched round ball? If so the thickness of your patch material will be another variable that will affect your group size. As you can see it can take a fair amount of experimenting to find an ideal load combination for any particular rifle. That`s half the fun of shooting these things though.

Good luck, and have fun

[Hanshi]

I agree; black powder is best in muzzleloaders.  If you have to use Pyrodex, et. al, they should work just fine but not the pellets.  Best way to get black powder is to order it.  The price on any brand is much lower when you order 25 pounds and that even includes the hazmat fee.  Start at 50 grains and go from there.

[Gordon H.Kemp]

I don,t want to rain on your parade----but , I doubt that if you do succeed in getting the gun to fire , it will never duplicate the performance of real black. Even in caplocks , black works better then the subs. The burning rate and preasure curve are quite different.  The Subs ignite at around 700degrees , while the real black is approx. 480 degrees. Idon,t think there is any way to duplicate the ignition temp. of black powder and still conform within the bounds of a flamable substance instead of a low grade explosive lable placed on Black Powder. It may be more expensive and harder to get then the Subs. but once you fire a well tuned flintlock with real Black Powder , nothing else will do .
 Think of the cost of six packs of beer and hard liquer and smoking .It don,t take long to drink-up the cost of a few cans Black Powde.

[Carolina Joe]

Thanks Fellas, and I would be using a patched ball for hunting. I'll see if I can get my hands on some real black powder.

[Carolina Joe]

One more question for the group, Would I be able to shoot a conical out of the rifle?

[RiverCat]

Yes, you could shoot a conical slug out of your rifle, but if you can expect any kind of decent accuracy from them would depend on the twist rate of the rifleling in your barrel. Do you know what your twist rate is? Conical slugs require a faster rate of twist than a roundball to stabilize them. Most barrels intended to shoot patched round balls will have a slow twist rate of about 1 in 60" or slower. Just guessing from the style of gun you have I`d bet your barrel has a slow rate of twist intended for round balls.

[Carolina Joe]

Thanks guys, I spoke with Mr. Franks yesterday and confimed what you guys have told me. My barrel is 42 inches with a 1 in 70 twist. He stated that i could try a conical but to remember they are made for rifles with a faster twist rate. Thanks again fellas.

[Stormrider51]

Joe,
Plenty of good advice given here already but I'd like to toss in a little more.  Some people dislike true black powder because it is corrosive and requires that the gun be cleaned after a shooting session.  There is a mistaken impression that Pyrodex, Triple 7, and a couple other "substitutes" are non-corrosive and therefore don't require regular cleaning.  The fact is that both Pyrodex and Triple 7 are corrosive.  Pour some on a clean piece of carbon steel, ignite it, let the fouling sit outside overnight, and see for yourself the next day.  My point is to clean your new rifle after each shooting session regardless of what propellant you choose.  I use water from the hot side of the tap with a drop or two of dish detergent in it.  A flush nipple set-up like Track of the Wolf sells makes the whole process easy.  I can completely clean my flintlock in 15 minutes or less.  It takes me a lot longer to scrub out a modern rifle.

Triple 7 in particular produces higher temperatures and pressures than real black powder.  Keep that in mind when developing loads and reduce charge levels accordingly.  Start low and work up slowly.

All the critters you mentioned hunting are thin-skinned and relatively light-boned.  You don't need to attempt to "magnumize" your rifle to hunt them.  Once the ball has gone in one side and out the other any remaining velocity and energy are wasted anyway.  Like William suggested, start with grain weight of powder that equals the caliber of your rifle and work up.  My .50 caliber flintlock loves 70 grains of FFFg.  There may be those who will tell you that is a light charge in a .50 but for the animals available to hunt in south central Texas and the average range at which shots are taken, 50 yards or less, it is more than enough.  I value accuracy above all else, the ability to put that ball right where I want it for a quick and humane kill.  To me there's no difference between an accuracy load and a hunting load.

Have fun with your new rifle.  Before long you will be wondering why you ever shot anything else.

Storm

[Carolina Joe]

Storm, Thank you for the good advice. I have decided to go ahead and order some black powder online. Has anyone used the powder from Graf and Sons?

[sse]

I have purchased from Powder Inc.  Competitive price-wise and reliable.