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Author Topic: Sometimes the old guys missed.  (Read 1499 times)

Offline huntinguy

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Sometimes the old guys missed.
« on: November 22, 2013, 12:29:08 AM »
Here is a picture of a rifle on display at Kings Mountain.
Seems like the ramrod channel wasn't as much of a concern as it is now.
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Offline greyhunter

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Re: Sometimes the old guys missed.
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2013, 07:46:25 AM »
My old eyes can't see what you are saying about the rr channel in this picture.
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Online rollingb

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Re: Sometimes the old guys missed.
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2013, 09:32:04 AM »
Quote from: "huntinguy"
Here is a picture of a rifle on display at Kings Mountain.
Seems like the ramrod channel wasn't as much of a concern as it is now.
Interesting,... he must not have wanted to start over with a different stock.
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Offline Uncle Russ

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Re: Sometimes the old guys missed.
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2013, 03:01:15 PM »
Does the channel itself run somewhat to the "right" of the trigger guard?
Like greyhunter, my eyes are not really good enough to see much detail, even with glasses.

But, in line with the subject, I do think it's reasonable to believe the good old boys sometimes miscalculated a wee bit.

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Offline greyhunter

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Re: Sometimes the old guys missed.
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2013, 10:47:24 PM »
Thanks Russ, I think I see it now, mebbe all he had was a crooked ramrod?????
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Offline huntinguy

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Re: Sometimes the old guys missed.
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2013, 11:55:40 PM »
You guys aren't the only one with old eyes...   :(

I did some editing. Lets see if this is better.

Ya, on the rifle the only thing keeping the ramrod in is the entry pipe and that it tucks under the right side of the trigger guard.
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Offline MedicineSoldier

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Re: Sometimes the old guys missed.
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2013, 07:44:13 PM »
I'm going to take this as a time to just bring in some fun old speculation.  Or at least a hmmmmm maybe a "what if" .....

Looking at the ramrod there appears to be a significant difference in the diameter from where it enters the entry pipe to the portion along the belly to the trigger guard.  Much more of a transition than would be normally seen in a typical tapered rod in such a short distance.  

So my speculation is that possible that this rifle was built/restocked by an individual who did not have a long drill bit or capability to drill a ramrod hole.  So he chose to gouge a groove to hold the ramrod cutting it toward the side opposite the lock and allowing the ramrod to be of sufficient length by going around the tab that may be used to pin the trigger guard in place.

As I said this is pure speculation but a lot of question arise I think for any reason it was done this way.  Is the rifle of the King's Mountain battle period?  Is it a later build (seems to be pretty clean for a rifle that old) that is just being used as a display of a firearms that were used at that time.  If it is of the time period, is it the original stock?  Is the ramrod original?  

So in my game of "what if" it brings up a lot more "what" questions.
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Offline wattlebuster

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Re: Sometimes the old guys missed.
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2013, 08:44:04 AM »
That looks like some of my work :Doh!
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Offline Captchee

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Re: Sometimes the old guys missed.
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2013, 09:56:20 AM »
Ok , ill drop my 2 cents as well . The photos are a little deceiving so its real hard to tell  but  here is what Im  looking at .
 The ramrod as it enters the entry is way bigger then what we see as it exists the entry .
 While this may have a tapered ramrod . That doesn’t explain IMO why this size is so drastically smaller in a short distance .  Im thinking what does explain this is that the RR channel that we are seeing is just the  very edge  where its broke through .  If  we look at the trigger guard  we can also see  that its broke through as part of the forward final is actually under the wood  . There also appears to be large chips in the stock up around the entry  final  as well as all along the channel that we see .
 These would not be there if  this was the original  condition of the rifle . What we would see is a even line  on both sides  going all the way back  to the front final on the trigger guard

 Now , why would this happen . Well simply put ,   the belly of original rifles are notoriously known to be very thin .  Its part of how  they get the very thin lines  . A lot of times this area is in fact no more then 1/8 inch thick . If you have ever seen a  brass belly plate on a rifle . Know that its not just there for decoration . Its there to cover and protect the RR channel  . It was also done as a period type repair  for the very reason your seeing .. If built correctly there also should be a slight taper  to the belly of the stock . IE the stock is thicker at the  lock mortise area and tapers towards the  entry . This we can see by the amount of  RR that is showing back at the TG
 Today a lot of builders  , especially those building from pre-carves  often leave way to much wood in the belly . Doing so creates a thicker wall  for the RR channel . But at the same time  also makes for a less slime  line .

 Now as for the  channel not being strait down the belly but canted off to the  side plate  or off hand side .
 This is also common . What this does is keep the  main spring inletting from  breaking through into  the RR channel . It also serves to  force the RR to bend as it goes into the  entry and helps hold the RR in place .
 The other thing it does  is  allow for the RR to  extend all the way back  just past the breech , while missing the  TG pin lug , which  would break through the channel  if  the channel was drilled strait down the center line .

So how did this rifle end up with  like this . Well we can only speculate. Someone may have tried to refinish it at one time  and  in adversity  sanded through  into the channel or  made the channel so thin that it broke out .
OR
 Think on this . If this is truly a rifle that saw service at  King Mountain , IE close quarters combat , IMO I would expect to see this kind of damage  regardless of the side the rifleman was on .
  If it was held by the over the mountain men, these men were advancing up hill  and firing from cover . So they would have been running from cover to cover .  Probably firing from both standing and prone positions .  So  I would think the rifle would have been landing sharply on its belly a lot .
 Once these men got in close  they would have  not only  confronted other rifleman but also  Fergusson’s regulars . Which by that time would have fixed their  bayonets. In which case the  belly of the rifle would also have seen heavy blows  as part of parrying a bayonet thrust

 If it had been in the hands of a Tory rifleman  then   I think we could also see this type of  damage in this location as these men would also have been firing from cover . Thus the rifle would again have been dropped    on its belly  heavly in the cause of the battle . Remember these men were also firing down hill .  This meant that  in order to be able to bring a bead on an advancing person , the belly of the gun would have been the main contact point , time and time again .

  If you have a long rifle , you can test this  for yourself by laying your rifle across a log , rock or any suitable rest . Now try and point the rifle down hill . The only way you can do that and still remain somewhat behind cover , is to  extend the muzzle well past the  what ever its resting on . IE you end up  with it resting somewhere behind the entry , back to the trigger guard depending on who steep of a down hill incline your trying to  fire to . Anything forward of that and you will end up  presenting a very good  target   for any  reasonable marksmen . Lets not forget  Ferguson’s men  were not  facing  just marksmen  but  sharp shooters on mass . In other words men whos very lives depended on their ability to shoot and shoot accurately. To exaggerate  some , many could probably  take the nuts of a Nat at 100 yards .

So regardless of what side the rifle was on  the belly should IMO have seen repeated blows that would have fractured , if not broke out the RR channel . Over time those pieces would have fallen away .
 If it was owned by  someone with little money,  as many of the   over the mountain men  were .  There probably wasn’t much need for it to have a belly plate put on as its still functional . Once the TG fell through then the rifle probably would have been set aside  or delegated to home defense as a spare rifle that was still usable but not  in  top working order .

 Now if it was left on the mountain, IMO it wasn’t there long OR someone has again tried to refinish it as it doesn’t IMO from what we can see , show signs of  long term exposure to the elements

Offline Hanshi

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Re: Sometimes the old guys missed.
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2013, 02:05:22 PM »
I don't think such a rifle would be greeted all that fondly today. :walk
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Offline huntinguy

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Re: Sometimes the old guys missed.
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2013, 02:26:42 PM »
Some very interesting thoughts here.

I don't know if the placard said if the rifle was at the battle or not (I am not near the pictures at the moment). It was represented as a period piece. When I get some time (and that will be a miracle) I will post all of the pictures I took of it on a photo site. It will be a few weeks though.
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Offline dmills

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Re: Sometimes the old guys missed.
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2014, 05:00:37 PM »
Quote from: "wattlebuster"
That looks like some of my work :party
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Offline Captchee

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Re: Sometimes the old guys missed.
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2014, 05:57:34 PM »
again , i dont believe the rifle was originaly built that way .