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Author Topic: Hawken Twist  (Read 1731 times)

Offline Muley

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Hawken Twist
« on: April 02, 2014, 10:36:32 PM »
As far as I can find out. Most of the Hawken Brothers guns had a 1-48 twist. I have read in more than one place that they did that, because they knew conicals were not far away, and they wanted their customers to be able to shoot them along with the PRB.

Do you think there's any truth in this, and if it isn't. Why did they use a 1-48 twist for just a PRB?
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Offline Buzzard

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Re: Hawken Twist
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2014, 11:59:42 AM »
Nearly all true Hawken brothers rifle were rifled 1:66-1:70" or more. And, 80% or so were full stock flinters! Only near the end of their careers did they build what we today call the Hawken style caplock rifle. The same time period the Leman came to be popular. Fortunately this time period is well documented.
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Offline Muley

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Re: Hawken Twist
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2014, 12:02:04 PM »
I'm talking about the plains style rifles they built in St Louis.
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Offline Muley

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Re: Hawken Twist
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2014, 12:15:57 PM »
Circa 1849 Samuel Hawken (U.S.) Percussion Plains Rifle (single-shot/ muzzle-loading/ black powder/ ball ammunition)  The late 1840s saw an increase in U.S. westward expansion, up the Missouri River, across the Great Plains, over the Rocky Mountains, and to the Pacific coast.  At first, the lure was fur, then cheap land, and finally, gold.  Symbolic of this movement was a half-stock heavyweight firearm, variously called the Plains Rifle" and the "Mountain Rifle," which originated in St. Louis, Missouri.
 
The most famous makers of these rifles were two brothers, Jake and Sam Hawken.  This example was made by Sam Hawken in 1849, just as the California Gold Rush began.  It and its kin are symbolic of the fervor for Manifest Destiny, which had infected the U.S. between 1835 and 1850.  Soon after 1850, however, the spoils of this Manifest Destiny would lead to internal disagreement over the expansion of slavery into new lands."    - Dr. William L. Roberts, THE AMERICAN LIBERTY COLLECTION; #58
 
The Hawken name is well known to students of the 19th century American West, as well as to firearms collectors.  The family's association with gunmaking began with brothers Christian and Nicholas Hawken, of Hagerstown, Maryland, who established themselves as makers of "Kentucky" rifles.  Christian's sons George, John, Jacob, Samuel, and William later followed in their father's footsteps.  Three of the brothers remained lifelong residents of the Hagerstown area, while Jacob and Samuel headed west.
 
Jacob, George and John were all employed for a time at the U.S. Armory at Harpers Ferry, Virginia beginning in 1807 and continuing until 1818.  Jacob later relocated to Missouri, settling first in New Madrid in 1819, then in St. Louis a year later.  By 1821, he had gone into business with gunsmith James Lakenan, who had come to Missouri from Henrico County, Virginia after working at the Virginia Manufactory of Arms.  The experience gained by both men in the armories of Harpers Ferry and Richmond was reflected in the rifles produced by the pair, which were patterned after Virginia iron-mounted military and hunting arms.  These patterns continued to influence the design of later Hawken rifles.   Jacob Hawken continued in the business after Lakenan's death in 1825.
 
Jacob's younger brother Samuel originally established a business in Xenia Ohio before joining Jacob in St. Louis after the deaths of their father and Samuel's wife in 1822.  Initially, Samuel started his own gunsmithing shop, but the two brothers entered into a partnership three years later.  Best known for their heavy octagonal-barreled "Plains Rifles" with bores up to .60 caliber, Jacob and Samuel Hawken also produced light sporting rifles, shotguns, and pistols.  Initially the brothers made their own barrels at their forge near St. Louis with the help of hired workers, but later, they followed the trend of buying factory-made barrels, which enabled them to increase production and possibly to reduce their workforce as well.  Locks were both made in the Hawken shop and purchased from other sources, while stocking operations were most likely carried out by the brothers and their employees.
 
The earliest J. & S. Hawken rifle order that can be documented dates from 1831, and in that year and the one following, orders for 18 rifles were placed with the company.  Both half- and full-stock models were available.  Some of these were flintlocks, but percussion arms account for the bulk of their production.
 
Manufacture of Hawken pistols was limited to the years prior to the Mexican War, and these sidearms were carried for the most part by overland explorers and military officers.  Pistols ranged in price from $8 to $18 each, while rifles were sold for approximately $20 for plain full-stock examples to $38 for best-grade arms.  Shotgun prices may have been as low as $10.
 
For the period from 1821 to 1855, gun orders accounted for about 60% of the income realized by the Hawken brothers.  Jacob and Samuel Hawken also produced stocks and repaired guns in addition to manufacturing their own arms.  The firm also provided other goods and services to fur traders, outfitters, and related businesses of the period, most notably the American Fur Company.  Legend has it that westward-bound trappers and traders stopped by the Hawken rifle shop to place their orders, but these guns were most likely purchased by outfitters and fur companies and shipped west for re-sale.
 
Although the Hawken name is often associated with the mountain men and trappers of  the period before the Mexican War, the popularity of these guns peaked in later years, by which time the buffalo had replaced the beaver in economic importance.  The Hawken rifle established a reputation as a well-made and reliable hunting arm suitable for taking bison, bear, and other big game.  The discovery of gold in California and the exploration of overland routes to the Pacific also contributed to the demand for these rifles.
 
Sales of Hawken rifles peaked in about 1855, then slowly declined over the next ten years in the face of competition from military rifles and from the products other armsmakers including Colt and Sharps.  Accounts indicate that Samuel Hawken had the opportunity to market Samuel Colt's products as well as his own but that he refused, even though he could undoubtedly have made a profit from Colt sales.
 
Samuel continued to operate the business after Jacob's death in the cholera epidemic of 1849.  In addition to his business ventures, Samuel was active in the civic affairs of his adopted hometown, both serving on the fire department and, on at least one occasion, he was a candidate for Mayor of St. Louis.  The later history of Samuel's life and enterprises is unclear, with sources indicating a variety of different outcomes to his life's story.  Upon his retirement in 1854, Samuel may have sold the business to J. P. Gemmer, an employee of the firm.  Other sources indicate that Samuel's son, William S. Hawken, and William's business partner Tristram Campbell, took over the firm, with William continuing with the business after the 1856 breakup of the partnership until he was forced to close the shop in the aftermath of the Panic of 1857.
 
Still other sources claim that the business passed to William L. Watt and Joseph Eterle, who later sold it to Gemmer.  In any event, both Samuel and William relocated to Denver.  Once again, there are conflicting accounts in this chapter of the Hawken saga.  William again entered into the business of manufacturing firearms in Colorado, and Samuel may have done so as well.  Sources claim that Samuel returned to St. Louis in 1861, while William remained in Denver.  Samuel died in 1884 at the age of 92, and William followed him to the grave in 1900.
 
The Hawken rifle has achieved legendary status in the history of the pre-Civil War American West.  Unfortunately, most of the Hawkens produced have not survived to the present day.  Over the past one hundred years, numerous authors have written about these arms and their popularity with the trappers, explorers, hunters, and prospectors who tamed a continent during the 19th century.  As with most legends, myth has become intertwined with fact, and many accounts indicate that just about everyone who ventured to the Rockies before the Civil War carried a Hawken rifle on their trek.
 
While the Hawken brothers undoubtedly produced many rifles, some of which did find their way to the Rocky Mountains and beyond, many other Hawken rifles were purchased and used by residents of Missouri and surrounding areas.  Jacob ans Samuel Hawken weren't the only source for these arms, as many westward-bound adventurers were outfitted with firearms from other makers in St. Louis, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, and even Europe.  Nonetheless, the quality of Hawken rifles and their association with such notables as Jim Bridger, Jeremiah Johnson, and Kit Carson cannot be overlooked, and these arms rightfully occupy a prominent place in the history of the United States.
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Offline cb

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Re: Hawken Twist
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2014, 01:07:56 PM »
Quote from: "Buzzard"
Nearly all true Hawken brothers rifle were rifled 1:66-1:70" or more. And, 80% or so were full stock flinters! Only near the end of their careers did they build what we today call the Hawken style caplock rifle. The same time period the Leman came to be popular. Fortunately this time period is well documented.

Sorry but that is incorrect - every Hawken mtn rifle still in existence is rifled 1:48" and the two rifling machines once used by the Brothers Hawken while in St Louis are made for 1:48" twist. That is fact based on actual measurements and if you don't believe me contact Don Stith who knows more about original Hawkens than most anyone alive.

The fact is the 1:48" twist is the most common twist found in most pre-1850 American made muzzleloaders and that is based on actual measurement of hundreds if not thousands of original guns. The 1:48" twist as a compromise twist is a modern concept mostly promoted by TC when their early shallow rifled rifles didn't always handle PRB's well and they came out with their sort of roundball/conical to CYA. The super slow rates of twist are mostly based on English made big bores designed for high velocity and heavy charges for the dangerous came hunted in Africa and India at the time.

FWIW - I have owned several rifles including some originals and three Hawken repros with 1:48" twist and never shot anything but PRB's in them and they work just fine and generally use less powder for the same buck.

As for 80% full-stocks - not sure where that figure cam from? While it's true that many full-stocks were made (maybe 60% based on the existing records), the Brothers were making 1/2 stocks and caplocks (both stock styles)by the early 1830's and by 1840 or so they had become more popular. Other major pre-1840  RMFT makers such Henry (Leman is a very late comer to the RMFT) were offering half-stocks and cappers to the RMFT suppliers by 1830, showing a growing desire for this style and mode.

And yes all of the above is well documented.
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Offline greyhunter

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Re: Hawken Twist
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2014, 09:34:59 PM »
Thanks CB! I always thought the 1:48 twist was the modern  TC 's idea to shoot the Maxi ball. Good info.
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Offline MountainDevil

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Re: Hawken Twist
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2014, 09:47:38 PM »
So who has ever heard of the Hawken "the original hawken, not todays crud'' shooting conicals back in the 1840s - 1850s?

Offline Muley

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Re: Hawken Twist
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2014, 10:47:22 AM »
I'd like you know this answer too? When were conicals first used in guns like the Hawken?
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Offline cb

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Re: Hawken Twist
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2014, 12:32:22 PM »
The first and really only reference to a conical (most likely picket bullet) being used in a Hawken that I know of, is to a gentleman in New Mexico in IIRC 1842 who was using a bullet one inch long in his Hawkins rifle - it is from Garrard in Wah-to-Yah and the Taos Trail - page 132:
Wah-to-yah and the Taos Trail - Lewis Garrard - Google Books

Quote
" Where is Drinker (the Cincinnati Editor) ? He w'as at the ranch, I believe."

" Out in the pinyon, that morning, with his big Saint Loui' gun — a Jake Hawkins gun, she was, eh ? He had bullets an inch long, with a sharp piint — be doggoned ef they was 'nt some, eh?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 12:54:38 PM by cb »
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Offline Muley

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Re: Hawken Twist
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2014, 12:34:29 PM »
Would appreciate it Chuck. Me and Mountain Devil are having a difference of opinion on this.   ;)
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Offline Captchee

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Re: Hawken Twist
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2014, 10:00:33 AM »
As CB pointed out the 1-48 twist isn’t new .
 Forsyth  suggested that  twist rates were  defined by the  size of the  round  .  In some  case he used rifling that was extremely slow  to the point we would consider it  as hardly having any twist .. These also had very shallow  groves down to .002 if I recall .

IMO I think maybe that the Hawkens  Bros , most like found that for the most common  size of their bore , the 1-48 fit their  needs . But they also used deeper rifling . Possibly they had no idea why this worked  other then it just worked
  Even today  a lot of the better barrel makers make the smaller calibers  in 1-48  or 1-56 .

  I also at one time believed that  the 1-48 was a compromise as conical evolution was taking hold. However I have came to believe that could not have been the case as  a large % of the military guns designed  to use conical  such as the Minie , actually had much slower twists   even as slow as 1-120 . Those rates didn’t speed up tell around 1860  and then they were  increased to the range of 1-60  through 1-70 .  It should also be noted that  both rates of twist produced a  very accurate   rifle , even at extreme ranges . So still not as fast as  the  1 in 48  but accurate with the longer conical .

 Also conical evolution started very early  the firearms evolution. There have been  examples of projectiles  that were longer then their circumference being found   in F&I war sights as well as during the American revolution. They look very much like what we would call a wad cutter  today . Just without the  grease groves . But I don’t think these had anything to do with  why the Hawkens chose the 1-48 twist

Offline Muley

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Re: Hawken Twist
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2014, 10:22:58 AM »
I don't either Cap. Since asking this question i've been researching it. I came up with an answer that seems to make sense.

The Hawken Bros used the 1-48 twist, because the muzzle velocities were low around 1400fps in those days. They found that the faster twist worked better for the slower fps. It's intentions was still to shoot a round ball though.

When I read that it seems to make sense. Even today its said that going to a slower twist than the 1-48 will let you shoot heavier loads accurately. I always preached this too, but my Renegade has made me scratch my head. It's very accurate with a 100gr of Olde Enysford which is equal to 110gr of Goex. It's so accurate at 100gr that I can't help believe that it would still be pretty accurate at an even higher powder load. Yet, it's still very accurate with conicals.

I've never owned a TC with this sort of accuracy. The bore gets slightly tighter at the muzzle, and i'm thinking this has something to do with it's accuracy.

My discussion with MountainDevil was about using conicals. He says it would be traditional for my simulated era which goes up to 1860. I disagreed. I agree conicals weren't that popular, but that doesn't mean that some hunters weren't using them.
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Offline MountainDevil

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Re: Hawken Twist
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2014, 11:02:50 AM »
they wouldnt use them IMO, to expensive, added weight. Thats why the hawken bros and other companies produced big bore rifles.

Offline Muley

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Re: Hawken Twist
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2014, 11:09:40 AM »
I need more proof than that Jon. It doesn't have to be in a Hawken. After all. I'm not shooting a Hawken.

Wish I was though.
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Offline MountainDevil

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Re: Hawken Twist
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2014, 12:14:54 PM »
besides the one link with the book and its poor grammar and most likely full of yarns, what proof do you have that any one used conicals for hunting back then? Why would they when they grew up using round balls for everything and learned their skills off them. Heck, percussion caps were invented back in the early 1800's, they didnt because popular until the late 1820s-1830s. It took people many years to accept something. If you think they just dropped their balls when something new like a conical came out, theres no friggin way.