Leading with minie balls

[RobD]

the awesome beauty of muzzleloaders is that you brew the load right at the range or afield.  this is almost never true, or allowed!, for cartridge guns, even of the black powder variety.  rondo's got the right idea, too - not only try different patch thickness’s and lubes, try at least two different ball diameters, always of PURE lead.  also, try to keep your powder compression as consistent as possible.  black powder is extremely compression sensitive, some brands more than others. i will not further bore or upset folks about "bouncing the rod".  

[edmundreiss1]

I thank everyone for their help, I have a 50 cal lyman trade flinter and use .020 patches, 70FFG, .490 roundball and wads over the powder.

[RobD]

I thank everyone for their help, I have a 50 cal lyman trade flinter and use .020 patches, 70FFG, .490 roundball and wads over the powder.

for starters, try a .015 well lubed patch instead, and up the volume of powder to 80 grains.  for your testing, wipe well between shots, in order to get a more positive "first shot" test results,

[rollingb]

Most of my shooting has been Cowboy Action, which mandates hard cast lead bullets.  So leading of barrels is something to be avoided (from experience).

I'm new to muzzleloading long guns, having gotten started late last year, although I have shot cap & ball revolvers.

I have 3 sidelocks, a flintlock Kentucky rifle, a caplock Hawken, and a caplock pistol, all in 50 cal.  Trying to convince myself that I need a 20 gauge Fowler to shoot clay birds, but don't think I can con myself into another rifle.  Hunting is not in my plans.

Although ramming home a PRB is a PIA, it's part of the joy of muzzleloading.  But it is tiring in a long practice session.  Shooting minie balls, which are so much easier to load, would allow longer practice sessions to get used to handling the rifles.  Endurance is an issue I deal with.

Appreciate the feedback.

AL

A solid brass range-rod will make short work of loading PRB at the bench, I've seen guys even replace the wooden ramrods on their rifles with solid brass rods.
A solid brass ramrod will indeed add weight to one's rifle, but some shooters claim the extra weight is beneficial for a steadier aim and like the fact that a brass ramrod is unbreakable.

As with lots of this stuff,.... YMMV.  

[Fletcher]

Tuning in late but a great read from you guys.  More than anything I like to try new stuff and
improve on old.  I have a couple 1:48 twist guns which spin the PRB a bit much but supposed
to be good with conicals.  As you have said that can bring up the leading problem - and lubing
the groves does help.  I found a mould at a ML trad show that is a .50 conical.  It has 3 deep
grooves and a very concave base.  That makes the rear edge quite thin and I think that helps it
seat deep into the lands and grooves of the rifling.  I use a stiff Lyman lube and the fouling is less
than other styles.  The accuracy was by far the best. I could shoot bench groups at 50 and 75 yds
much tighter than other conicals or prb.  Now all of those were plenty good for hunting rounds at
those distances - and I just could not see well enough to go beyond 75 yds.  Have not shot that for
several years now - but want to get back to more when I head home in March from my SOCAL Sojourn

Keep up the great articles  

[RobD]

naked bullets require a good grease lube, and one that's bp friendly.  that and a proper bullet diameter, which will be dependent on the rifling's groove depth.  there are other factors, too, with regards to barrel leading, such as alloying the lead and hardening it after casting, wads and grease cookies.  a patched ball eliminates all that, period - where leading is never an issue.  which is one reason i'm now working with paper patching for bpcr and casting slick bullets.  ppb would be a alternative for ml's, too.  the fun never ends, huh?  

[bigalber]

Has anyone used APP (American Pioneer Powder) BP sub?

Main advantage is no lube is used, as it produces its own "lube".  No "hard fowling". Used with dry patches or wads, and supposedly reloading is much easier.  Cleans easily with water.

I haven't tried in muzzle loaders, but have shot in cartridges.

[RobD]

Has anyone used APP (American Pioneer Powder) BP sub?

Main advantage is no lube is used, as it produces its own "lube".  No "hard fowling". Used with dry patches or wads, and supposedly reloading is much easier.  Cleans easily with water.

I haven't tried in muzzle loaders, but have shot in cartridges.

a smokeless powder that produces its own lube?    

[Uncle Russ]

Has anyone used APP (American Pioneer Powder) BP sub?

Main advantage is no lube is used, as it produces its own "lube".  No "hard fowling". Used with dry patches or wads, and supposedly reloading is much easier.  Cleans easily with water.

I haven't tried in muzzle loaders, but have shot in cartridges.

I have personally never heard of this claim before so I went to Pioneer Powder to see what I could find.
Also, I have never used anything in my own muzzleloaders, other than loose real black powder, so this statement really peaked my interest.
Welcome to American Pioneer Powder

I did find this:.....
Shooting Tips: Three Easy Steps!

1. Clean all oil, lube, bore butter, ballistol, and foreign material out of the gun using non-lubed cleaner(i.e. alcohol).
2. Shoot a fouling shot.
3. Load and shoot. Repeat.
Cleaning - Wet Patch (water only), dry patch.
Repeat, if necessary. Then lightly oil for storage.

I have personally never used any of American Pioneer Powder's Products, so I can't even begin to give any kind of assessment to their claims.
But...what I have learned over the years is that most faux powders are designed and intended to be used in in-lines using 209 shot-gun primers for ignition.

FWIW; I have strongly resisted the use of these guns, and their associated accessories, because of the very things I was fighting so hard for back in the 1960's, early 70's and that was a primitive special season for Muzzle loaders with a relative short range for the many concerns at the time in populated areas, still yet, because these new rifles loaded from the front, and represented a lot of money for different Game Departments in the form of License Sales, and to the retailer for a opportunity in increased sales, they were accepted into that Special Season and became very much a part of the American hunting scene.

Things such as In-lines, Faux Powder, Scopes, and Sabots are very much legal and well received by many, in a lot of our States.
I find that to be the American Way, and perhaps that is as it should be, if we are to remain a free Nation.
It's more of  the typical "to each his own" scenario, while I prefer the Traditional style of gun to do my shooting and hunting, but then that is just me......  

Uncle Russ...

[Two Steps]

Al

[bigalber]

APP is popular in the Cowboy Shooting community.  The bullets are not lubed, I used poly coated lead with no lube.  Others use in C&B revolvers, again, no lube.

The fouling is water based, which is a product of the combustion of the powder (a hydrocarbon), and very fine residue which feels slippery and acts like "lube".  APP produces as much smoke as BP, loads (by volume) the same as BP, and, judging by the recoil when I shot a full load .45lc, as much punch as BP.  The large pistol primers worked 100%.

I would suspect that a Caplock should work OK, but I was wondering about the Flintlock being able to ignite the APP (reason I asked if anyone had experience with it).  Next timeI go out, I'll experiment and see what happens.

APP has another advantage as not being static sensitive as BP is reputed to be, and some consider it safer to handle.

I understand the use of BP for competitive shooting events and hunting, but for recreational plinking I would be able to shoot a lot more with a lot less strain with APP, assuming it works in a Flintlock.

AL

[Two Steps]

Opps...my mistake...I went back and re read your first post and saw you were not asking about round balls  
Al

[Uncle Russ]

APP is popular in the Cowboy Shooting community.  The bullets are not lubed, I used poly coated lead with no lube.  Others use in C&B revolvers, again, no lube.

The fouling is water based, which is a product of the combustion of the powder (a hydrocarbon), and very fine residue which feels slippery and acts like "lube".  APP produces as much smoke as BP, loads (by volume) the same as BP, and, judging by the recoil when I shot a full load .45lc, as much punch as BP.  The large pistol primers worked 100%.

I would suspect that a Caplock should work OK, but I was wondering about the Flintlock being able to ignite the APP (reason I asked if anyone had experience with it).  Next timeI go out, I'll experiment and see what happens.

APP has another advantage as not being static sensitive as BP is reputed to be, and some consider it safer to handle.

I understand the use of BP for competitive shooting events and hunting, but for recreational plinking I would be able to shoot a lot more with a lot less strain with APP, assuming it works in a Flintlock.

AL

[size=150]Now I get the picture! [/size]
A lot of fellas, myself included, have been playing around with PC or Powder Coating for the past 3 or 4 years..
It's a very simple process that has shown a lot of promise in Cap & Ball Pistols.
It also works well in oversize Balls for muskets as no lube is involved.
Of course, it must be understood that none of this is what could referred to as (PC or HC) Period Correct, or Historically Correct, and would never be accepted at any formal game played by honest muzzle loaders...But, for those that like to experiment, it is indeed a fun thing to try your hand at.
I have tried it on over size Maxi-Ball and there was no sign of leading whatsoever, and clean-up was a breeze.

Still yet, this is a replacement for lube, and has nothing to do with powder.

Maybe I'm still missing the boat on this APP thingy, which likely means I need to do a lot of reading in places I've never been before.

Thanks for sharing that with us bigalber, personally, I had never heard of it before, I suspect many of us Traditionalist types will need to do a little catching up on our research.

Uncle Russ...