leading

[ross]

Any of you slug gun shooters have leading problems? Howdidja solve them? My .38 schuetzen decided to lead up today. couldn't hit nutttin. I'm thinking a small problem that just happened to peak today. I also had switched to pure lead in the .3695, 300 gr slug. .370 bore, .375 grooves. Lube with spg. Any hints?   Ross

[rdstrain49]

If I read your post correctly, and you are shooting an un-patched slug, not a patched round ball, then your bullet is very much under-size, likely leading to stripping material from the slug onto the rifling.  A cast slug should be up to .002" larger than the groove diameter @ .375 groove = .377 slug.  I have one rifle that shoots best with a slug that is .004" oversize.  Just my $.02, hope it helps.

[ross]

When shooting oversized slugs, we literally could't get 'em down the bore. Steve Brooks has recommended a bore sized slug with a groove size single driving band at the top. Just the opposite of tapered schuetzen slugs that are breech loaded. It should be here next week. I tried paper patch also but that was very inconsistent. I lapped the barrel since then, so maybe the PP bullets will do better. I've always been a round baller, this is new  to me and I'm getting quite the experience. Thanks, all hints welcome.

[RobD]

since we are strictly a muzzleloading organization, this is a muzzleloader and not a breech cartridge rifle yer initially describing, correct?  

either way, the answer for me is a paper patched bullet.  if done correctly, there is never any leading - very much like a patched ball.  accuracy is nothing short of outstanding, too.

[Hawken]

Here's an example of PP accuracy:

1000 yards 50/90 PP by Sharps Man, on Flickr

1000 yards shooting 720 gr. PP bullet with alloy of 1-20 using load of 116 grs. BP through a Shiloh Sharps. I was testing this load for vertical only and if I had taken 1 1/2 MOA left all shots would have been within the smaller plate which is 20" diameter! This is shooting BORE DIAMETER bullets patched to an OD such that when the cartridge was shoved into battery the lands would engrave the paper!

Now....back to ML and patched round ball!! :salute

[ross]

Thanks all: I do need help. I had trouble getting over sized slugs down the barrel(yup its a ml) to the point of needing a hammer once. I wiped between shots too. Tried greasing the bore after wiping. Then I tried PP bullets. My .362 mold needs some tough .002 paper. The 9 lb tracing paper from buff arms ain't.002, more like .015, so I know I need a little thicker patching but greenline computer paper tears on loading at least 1 in 10 shots.. I got some heavier tracing paper, more like 25 lb but it still is less than .002. I went back to sized slugs of just under .370(bore diameter) but now have leading. I have since lapped the barrel and I 'm ready to start over??? So, on your greased slugs what diameter bullet would you put down a .370 bore-.375 groove barrel and how hard should I have to work at getting that slug down the barrel? Same for the paper patching. Thanks again , Ross

[RobD]

i can only offer how a breech loaded bullet (.45-70 cartridge) functions ...

as a starting point for greaser bullets, the typical final size should be at the groove diameter or +.001" for a 1:30 alloy of tin:lead, or .459 for a .45-70.  

for black powder paper patched bullets (which will typically be different from smokelss ppb's), the completed patched bullet (using a 2 layer wrap of 9# papermill onion paper) is no larger than bore diameter or slightly under, using 1:15 to 1:30 alloy ... yes, it's intentionally a bore rider, and allows for any cartridge OAL required.  but you can't have that with a muzzleloader and expect the lead to bump up.  you'll need to paper patch and engrave the paper, which will allow the lead to bump up on ignition.  so ppb's for ml's should be more like smokeless powder ppbs, and engrave the paper.

[rollingb]

Weren't over-sized conical bullets (and even patched round balls) used in "muzzleloading" Schuetzen rifles,... normally started/loaded with a hammer?

[ross]

Thanks Guys: Yes both of you are right. I agree that I need a little more diameter on my pp bullets. I ordered the mold believing that the onion skin paper would indeed be as advertised at .002...  My problems on pp bullets was the paper would tear on loading when I used a mildly over size bullet patch combo. I may have cured that after lapping the barrel with the JB compounds. It is smoother. I also have a reamer to enlarge my sizing die .001" at a time and see if I can find a sweet spot. Makes sense that gas cutting would be my leading problem and patch bugaboo. I've read Matthews and Roberts and some stuff on Harry Pope.

[ross]

RD strain49: How difficult is it to shove that oversize slug down the bore?    Ross

[Ohio Joe]

Weren't over-sized conical bullets (and even patched round balls) used in "muzzleloading" Schuetzen rifles,... normally started/loaded with a hammer?

I believe that to be correct. I'm sure I read something on that very thing in one or two of the books I have, but I believe early and I mean early Schuetzen rifles - they actually hammered the naked lead ball down with no patch.

[ross]

Well, I reamed out my sizing die to .372. Went to the range and proceeded to make smoke. After 15 shots, they all stayed in the red of the schuetzen target. Which is a 12" bull for iron sites at 220 yds. I kept things to about 8". Which is a huge improvement. And more important, consistent, no flyers. I still had some minor leading. My loading sequence is wipe the bore with 2 moist patches, and 2 dry patches, 50 grs.ff weighed,.060 card wad, lightly oil the bore over the wad, load bullet. The light oiling lessens the effort to ram the slug. and good old gun oil seems to work the best. The leading cleaned up easily. So I'm on the right track? I also noticed an increase in recoil, guess the gases are being held back better.
 I reamed the sizing die to .3735 and sized some more lead slugs. They miked at .375 after being shoved thru the false muzzle. So theoretically, I am now just filling the the grooves of the barrel and see visual evidence of full contact from the false muzzle. So off to the range again tomorrow. The weather here in Utah was 49 degrees, no wind, but lots of glare off all that snow. Storm again monday. Thanks to all who made suggestions. I'll post my results.    Ross

[ross]

Success! On target and no lead.

[rollingb]

Success! On target and no lead.

:notworthy  

[ross]

Thanks to the hints from ya'll!!!!!!