Ante-Chamber on a T/C Rifle.

[Uncle Russ]

Thousands of T/C Rifles have been sold, and it would be my estimate that less than 1% of T/C owners have ever taken a look at the breech end of their rifle, and seen the ante-chamber that is often referred to in the cleaning process.

The owner may or may not know it even exists, although they are often reminded of the importance of cleaning this little guy, they have no clue what it really looks like and why it's so important to clean it....because the flash hole leads directly into this chamber.

Ever wonder what that mysterious Ante-Chamber looked like?
Thanks to todays technology we can look that that without ever removing the breech.

Well, here it is from a very early T/C.......using my own Bore-Scope.
At 9 O'clock you can see the flash-hole, ie, the 'rust spot', the Ante-Chamber is, at a guess, about 1/4" deep, and about the size of a 30-30 bronze brush...
(Rob D can give you a better measurement, probably an exact measurement, as he actually takes 'em out and plays around with 'em...something few of us have ever done.)



Uncle Russ...

[Bigsmoke]

And T/C even "gave" (uh, make that sold ) us a convenient little brass ramrod tool to scrape that chamber clean.  IIRC, it was 10-32 threads and about 5/16" +/- in diameter.  Screw it into the T/C ramrod, put it into the barrel all the way down and give it a twist, and presto-chango the breech pluug was supposed to be clean.

MSM went at it from a different tack. instead of a brass tool, theirs was a bristle brush inserted into an aluminum (I think) adapter that also screwed into the ram rod.  Also worked as a breech plug scraper for a flat plug.

Different ways of doing the same thing.  Amazingly, I have shot thousands of rounds through my old T/C's and never needed the convenience of either of those items.  Ignition was always good with no problems.  YMMV.

I agree with you Russ that many people do not know about the design and even the look of their breechplugs.  And probably do not even care, either.

John

[Ohio Joe]

Thanks for sharing Russ.   

[RobD]

i never messed much with t/c guns, though at one point i did have a few.  for the investarms guns (lyman, dixie, cabelas, etc) the patent breech plug is as good a design as they come, far better than the pedersoli frontier rifle's patent breech (i'll explain later).

for the investarms guns, regardless of caliber (either .50 or .54), the depth of the ante-chamber hole is 1.058" and its bore is .336", which is why i use a .32 brush with a patch draped over it to clean it out.  it find this works far better than using a .32 jag and patch.  the touch hole is drilled and threaded into the octagon of the breech plug.

a new investarms .54 patent breech, prior to cleaning out the proofing residue and lubing with Nikal anti-seize grease ...


for the .36 caliber pedersoli frontier rifle's patent breech plug, the depth of the ante-chamber hole is .568" and its bore is .223".  the touch hole is drilled, and threaded, right into the breech plug thread!  which means it must be aligned properly with the barrel's touch hole thread!  not an easy row to hoe - ask me how i know! 

in the upper left hand corner of the pic below is the strange pedersoli .36 rifle patent breech plug.  notice the touch hole drilled right into the breech plug threads - yikes! ...

[Uncle Russ]

Great information Rob!
This is a "part" of Muzzleloading that often gets totally overlooked...there's absolutely nothing exciting here, except for a few of us old gun nuts,  things that ain't nowhere near as much fun as just shootin these guns.

Still yet, some may find it helpful to take a look, and be familiar with what's going on, or better yet...know what you're pouring that powder down on, and into.....before the real fun begins in touching it off.

Jus'sayin

Uncle Russ...

[Winter Hawk]

And then along came CVA and Spanish imports where the bolster screws through the breech plug, and is then bored out from the muzzle!  I understand that the touch hole is basically the same with the bolster itself cut off.  I believe that the Traditions pieces are made the same way.  It is screwed into the opposite wall of the breech plug, maybe into the barrel also. 

You don't want to know how I learned this!  Suffice to say that my Deer Creek/CVA has a Colerain barrel with conventional breech, installed by Captchee.

~WH~

[RobD]

it can be of some importance to know how yer gun is built.  fer instance, the ante-chamber of a patent breech, of which almost all offshore guns have. 

if you dry ball (and who hasn't every now and then? not me!) and have a slotted touch hole liner and turn screw handy, remove the liner, fill up the ante-chamber with powder, screw back the liner, blow out the ball.  neat!  no struggling with a ball worm, particularly if you have a tightly patched ball which was tough enuf to hammer down the tube and now you wanna pull that bad boy out.  who hasn't been there with that a time or two? (not me! hah!).  anyhoo, the ability to blow out a dry ball is a good thing.

the ante-chamber will hold only so much powder.  do take that into consideration if yer looking for a light patched ball load.  IIRC, the investarms patent breech holds nearly 30 grains of 3f black powder.  to be safe i'd go no lower than 35 grains.  what's to be safe about?  well, the patched ball goes no further into the main chamber than the face of the patent breech ante-chamber.  if you don't fill up the patent chamber, there'll be an air space between the powder and the patched ball.  not a good thing.

 

[RobD]

And then along came CVA and Spanish imports where the bolster screws through the breech plug, and is then bored out from the muzzle!  I understand that the touch hole is basically the same with the bolster itself cut off.  I believe that the Traditions pieces are made the same way.  It is screwed into the opposite wall of the breech plug, maybe into the barrel also. 

You don't want to know how I learned this!  Suffice to say that my Deer Creek/CVA has a Colerain barrel with conventional breech, installed by Captchee.

~WH~

essentially, the same as the pedersoli above, which is percussion ignition, but exactly the same for flint.  what a pain!

[In Over My Head]

So, where the drum or touchhole liner threads into both the barrel and the breech plug, it must be pretty tricky to get them lined up again after removal especially if the breech plug is a tight fit.

Is there a trick, technique, tool or etc. to make this re-alignment easier?

[RobD]

So, where the drum or touchhole liner threads into both the barrel and the breech plug, it must be pretty tricky to get them lined up again after removal especially if the breech plug is a tight fit.

Is there a trick, technique, tool or etc. to make this re-alignment easier?

slightly and carefully turn the plug and test fit the touch hole liner (flint) or bolster (cap).

this is where scribing a pair of fine witness lines on the plug before removing it are quite important.

[Hanshi]

I've owned Pedersoli, Traditions and CVA rifles, and, they all had some form of "patent breech".  I'll say right off the bat that I don't particularly care for this type of breech; I much prefer a flat breech.  The Traditions and the CVA, IIRC, had the drum threaded directly into the breech plug; The flintlock "Cub" Pedersoli had the vent hole screwed into the barrel to access the antechamber.  And although I don't prefer the antechamber breech plugs, I never once experienced any problems whatsoever with any of these rifles.  They were as reliable as tax bills.  I owned these, and a couple more, rifles for over 20 years; that pretty much proves, at least in my mind, that these things work and work very well.  But I still don't care for them at all. 

They all drifted away to new homes, eventually; so I now have only one rifle with an antechamber breech.  This one is my Euroarms US M1841 "Mississippi: rifle in the original .54 that I ordered from Jarnigan's.  It was a special order AND a screaming deal, to boot.  I've had it for around 15 years and it is accurate and has taken deer.  It's a beautiful replica with a walnut stock and the little hole in the breech plug face.  I love this rifle.  I've experienced 100% reliability with it and have 100% confidence in it, as well.  With the detachable barrels I simply remove them the and "pump" clean in a bucket of water.  All the others I clean in situ; and rarely go to any other trouble.  I may not like them but they are reliable; I'll give them that.

[Winter Hawk]

My problem was of my own making. I wanted to lighten the rifle since in .45 it was a pound heavier than a CVA Mountain Rifle in .50 I had acquired.  I had the flats milled down so it was 7/8" across rather than 15/16".  To do that the gunsmith had to make a new touch hole liner.  After 100 or so shots, there was a noticeable gap developing around the liner and I had powder burns coming out of that gap.  My decision was to have a new barrel installed (7/8" across the flats), using a flat breech.  This has worked out very well for me, to the point that I shoot this rifle almost exclusively.

~WH~

[RobD]

yikes kees, what a mess on that touch hole liner!  bet the new barrel is SO much better! 

i'm not a fan of the patent breech plug, either.  it just means that an extra step or two is required for both fouling control and cleaning. 

i like a flat breech plug, and one that is FLAT faced with no trough or channel cut into the face in order to create a "false patent breech" that insures the touch hole delivers the pan heat to the extreme back of the powder charge column.  a channel/trough in the face of a flat breech plug introduces a void that must be smooth and clean, no sharp edges.  no matter what, it will not allow a scraper to clean it out.  and if it's not smooth, it will tear at the jagged cleaning patch.  it also means that the threaded barrel hole for the touch hole liner will compromise the breech plug's threads, too.

thanx for nothing, jackie ...

[Winter Hawk]

I'm looking at your photo of the breech plug.  It looks like you have plenty of thread on it; would it be possible to cut it back to just behind the touch hole?  That would entail setting the barrel back so there is no space between the step at the rear and the face of the BP for fouling to accumulate, something I have read about but never done in person.  Basically it would mean taking off exactly the same amount off the rear of the barrel as you take off from the front of the breech plug... argh, that won't work because then the touch hole doesn't line up with the pan.  Forget I ever said anything!   

~WH~

[RobD]

no, what yer saying makes sense and what i was sorta thinking, but not to lathe the face flat.

the plug's distinct and sharp cornered trough runs right to the touch hole.  my thinking was to dremel off the sharp edges of the trough, smooth and polish them out, and in the process open up the trough wider and flatter, in more of a triangular shape.