Another lube discussion....

[Uncle Russ]

For years on end I have read, and heard, that T/C Bore Butter 1000+ can't be beat.
Also, for an equal number of years I have read, and heard that T/C Bore Butter 1000+ is nothing short of a rip-off.

So where is the real truth?

I have close friends all over the Southwest that use Bore Butter, all of the time, and would rather fight than switch.
I have local friends that ONLY use Bore Butter, and swear by its properties.

I personally own several tubes of Bore Butter....several of them in fact, even some that is green in color and supposedly smells like pine needles, or something like that.
Still yet, I don't use it very much for anything other than Minnie Balls and Conicals, and I have a homemade lube for most, but I still prefer the ol' spit patch for the roundball.
I have a strong feeling that I have tried just about every lube on the market, and dozens of Homemade lubes from A to Z, some were liquid and some were paste.
And now, after over 6 decades of paying around with all these concoctions, I honestly haven't found one that stood out above the others with only one exception...and that exception was the original formula used in LeHigh Valley Lube, a long time ago....

I am not a believer in "seasoning" the barrel, as was once the rage, because none of my muzzleloaders are skillets, and their barrels are all made of the finest steel available.

The subject of Seasoning is the very reason I have posted this.
Many good, faithful shooters that  I have encountered believe in the process, while about the same number don't.

Have I tried it?..... Yes, many years ago when it first becoming popular.
Did it make any difference?...... Nothing that I was sharp enough to see.
Do I believe others have been successful in following that process?.....Yes, If I can believe my friends, and many of them are very honest about such things.

Now, knowing all to well that such a post is largely subjective, as we all have that certain favorite lube, I would like to ask that you read the following link before commenting.
Arthur Brown is a well respected name in Muzzleloading, with many items being marketed as EBCO.
Perhaps that is why this little article caught my attention....
Anyway, you read, you decide....I am not promoting this in anyway, shape, form, or fashion, I just found it interesting. Perhaps you will too.
 http://www.eabco.com/Muzzleloader04.htm

Russ...

[VinceM]

Isn’t this basically the Dutch Shoulz shooting system, except he uses his “Moose milk” instead of bore butter.

[Bigsmoke]

Personally, I am not a big fan of Wonder Lube, regardless if it smells like bathroom deodorizer (Pine Scent) green, or the original yellow stuff that smell like liniment.
I don't subscribe to the idea of trying to season something like a rifle barrel.  It probably works pretty good on a porous surface like cast iron, but on modern steel?  Nah, not so much.
The only time I really used it was as a lubricant on patches and cushion wads for hunting purposes for my big bore rifles.
The only solid lube I care for is Bumblin' Bear Grease by October Country.  For patches while just shooting I like Ol' Thunder, and that is great for cleaning, also.
That article you attached reads more like an advertisement for Thompson Center.  I wasn't really impressed but it is one person's opinion, and everyone has an opinion about something.
John

[Ohio Joe]

I've read that link before, Russ.

I don't completely agree with everything in it, but I'm a fan of Bore Butter for hunting purposes only as I don't want to risk a "rust ring" with a spit patch where the patched ball meets the barrel for an extended period of time.

When target shooting I use a spit patch... When lubing the bore after cleaning I use Birch Wood Casey Sheath Oil when the bore (and all metal parts are dry).

I have never believed that the "modern" barrels we shoot today can be seasoned. I just don't think it's possible. Perhaps the barrels of the old school of muzzle loading can be seasoned because of the manufacturing process of yesteryear and their metal content, but not the modern made barrels (just my opinion).

I once heard that the old Black Powder of yesteryear contained no graphite. I once heard that today's Black Powder does contain graphite to help the powder not to cake in the can, horn, or flask... If so,,, I'm of the opinion that black powder cleanup of yesteryear may not have been as difficult (though I really don't consider it difficult to clean my muzzle loaders) as we may think?

Just my thoughts on this and what works for me. However, (and not many folks pay much attention to it) but, Laura Ingall's Wilder (Little House on the Prairie) fame, was a real person who's dad (Charles) used a muzzle loading rifle to hunt with. She explains in one of her "series" books that he used boiling water to clean his ML, and oiled it with Whale Oil, then loaded it and hung it above the Fire Place... This is factutual, not fiction - but not many put much stock into this "historical" 1870's account.

Sorry I got so long winded....     

[Hawken]

Long ago I accepted the axiom that my rifles were going to outlive me by far! As for 'seasoning' a barrel....I do that to my rifles....by shooting them! By golly the more patched round balls that get pushed through the bore....the slicker, smoother, and more seasoned they become! I use tap water to clean out the fouling and a breech scraper when needed and I have no rust in the bores! I dry the bore with sufficient patches and then I run a lube patch of canola oil down the bore several times before I put the rifle away. Before shooting the next time I run a couple patches of denatured alcohol to remove any oil and go again! I wipe after every shot just as an added precaution that there are no smoldering embers within the bore and because it assist in producing excellent accuracy!

MERRY CHRISTMAS to all!!

[PetahW]

.

I've been using BB 1000+ since it was introduced (early 1980's ? - I disremember).

I still have/use the .45 T/C I started out with then - and have had zero rust or accuracy issues since.

I warmed the barrel back then, according to the BB instructions - and then applied a generous coat in the bore, letting it cool & stored it until use.

That was the only time I did that......................

Since then, after any day's shooting, all I did was flush the bore (and ignition channel) with Moose Milk (Ox-Yoke Bore Cleaner), then ran multiple dry patches downbore until they came out almost as white as they were when I started.

After that, I lubed up a clean patch w/BB & ran it down/up the bore once before storing the rifle until the next use - which, at the end of the deer season could be 9 months away.

(I flushed & cleaned the nipple, hammer nose, breech area & lock plate separately)

I'm less than interested in finding a different method, because my thoughts are: If it ain't broken, don't "fix" it.


.

[Winter Hawk]

Not Dutch's method that I can see.  I'll have to dig it out and reread it again. 

BUT, the seasoning idea this article mentions doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  You don't season a cast iron pan by greasing over the food residues which are in it from cooking; you clean it down to bare metal, grease it up well and leave it in a medium hot oven for an hour or so.  The heat opens up the pores of the metal as well as melting the grease (or oil; I've read both) which then can get down into the pores.  Detergent or soap will loosen the grease and flush it out, so you want to clean with plain water.

To get the same result with a rifle barrel you would also need to get it squeaky clean, lube it up well, get it hot and leave it that way for quite some time so the lube soaks into the pores.  Wiping between shots to get rid of the fouling, or to get the bore in the same state of fouling is needed to get consistent shots.  Thinking that you are seasoning the bore by it is silly, no more than greasing that frying pan with food stuck to it.

Cleaning the bore with plain water is good.  I like the idea of using a smaller diameter brush with a patch wrapped around it rather than a cleaning jag; I used to do that very thing with my centerfire rifles.  I think the brush pushes the patch into the grooves to get them clean better than a button jag does, although I haven't had a jag get stuck down the bore like he says.

Natural v.s. synthetic lube?  Hard to say.  I've seen a write up where the petroleum based lubricant will combine with the black powder during ignition and produce the tar which is often mentioned.  The article had all the chemical processes lined out and sounded reasonable to me.  Besides, the old-timers didn't have petroleum products and bear grease, whale oil etc. worked for them.  They also didn't have all the plant based oils and greases (think Crisco or Wesson Oil) we have now so tallow and beeswax would be the order of the day.

Hmmm.  I think I'm starting to yammer and I hear lunch calling to me.  'Nuff said!

~Kees~

[Uncle Russ]

As always, this makes for a very interesting discussion.

I agree with Kees, this is in no way reflecting Dutch Schoulz methods.
I have one his very early instruction pamplets, and I understand he has had to make a few major changes since my copy was published.
Appears he has had to play "catch-up' with the popularity of Balistol, once it came on the scene.

And, as Bigsmoke so aptly commented, it does present some appearance of a T/C ad.

I don't think we can ever expect a consensus on the business of "seasoning" a barrel.
I have been witness to those claiming to have done this with great success, and since I have shot with these guys, I have no reason whatsoever to doubt their word, as they "shot all day", or so it seemed.
The most shots I ever got was 30 something, and that was using the old formula LeHigh Valley Lube.
Was that just a fluke?  Maybe.
Since that time I've never tried to see just how many shots I could get without wiping.

On the same note, my attempt to do this same thing (although I will never think of the process as seasoning) was a complete and total failure....but like hundreds of others, back 30 or 40 years ago, I tried it...it was THE thing back when...
I have a sneaky suspicion that many other old timers may have tried it, and failed, but they're too proud to admit it because they also failed....jus'sayin.

On brighter note, if you have a favorite lube and it works well for you, stick with it!
If you're not happy with your lube, don't be afraid to venture into change. Change can often be for the better.
Just don't take you buddy's word for what is best, because that NEVER seems to work, mostly because your buddy ain't shooting your gun.

Good discussion!

Russ...

 

[greyhunter]

Target shooting, I use spit patches, hunting either bore butter, or a Remington substitute I bough several cans of when on sale. I tried Ballistol and I guess I just don't get the reasoning of having to add water to a chemical to make it work better. I used it straight from the spray can for cleaning and storage, guess I was doing it wrong, but I found it a poor cleaner, smelly, pricey, and not good for storage as I came up with a rusty patch when I checked it a month later. I made Moose milk then found several posts that said peroxide is a rust promoter, so I ditched that too. I think Pathfinder, but may be wrong, on the forum, said to use ATF for cleaning and storage. All my rifles and smooth bores now have a good coating applied after cleaning now and no rusty patches when I wipe to shoot, one, two, or more months later. There are thousands of muzzle loaders in museums, that I am sure, never saw Ballistol or anything we use today, during their service life, either for patching or cleaning. Preventing rust the best they could with bear grease, whale oil or coon fat, apparently those old guns didn't rust the breeches out and served well, for the most part, their owners years ago. I think trying to use spit on a patch when in mortal combat, would have been as difficult in the old days as it would be today, and greased patches of some type of animal fat would have been the order of the day, and water and tow for cleaning.

[Maven]

Funny that the topic of BP [patch] lube has come up again, as I've used several types, both liquid and "grease" types, including "Bore Butter" and its clones, and haven't seen huge differences in loading and/or accuracy as a result.  To wit, for range shooting and woods walks in warmer weather (above 32 deg. F), saliva or some version of "moose milk" work wonderfully.  Indeed, 2 weeks ago on a woods walk, I had to use spit patches (flannel cleaning material in fact) and had no powder fouling buildup to speak of.  However, when hunting or at a woods walk in cold weather (32 deg. or less), i.e., when you won't/can't take an immediate 2nd shot, I prefer a grease lube.  Of those, I prefer Stumpy's Moose Snot or even coconut oil rubbed into my patches since I can get ~20 shots without swabbing my bore.  In fact, I used Stumpy's this past Sunday at a shoot (very chilly!) and had no problems to speak of.  Btw, various oils, e.g., mineral, olive, peanut, also work quite well.  The only commercial grease lube I've used that created a fouling problem was 103 Lube.  As for Bore Butter and its variants, I lucked into at least 8 tubes of Ox-Yoke yellow lube (wintergreen smell) at the Kittery Trading Post for use in my lube sizer for CF rifle & pistol loads and really like it:  No heat needed, no bore leading, etc.  Lastly, on the subject of bore seasoning, you may want to read another point of view:  http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/251958/  No, I don't do it, and don't really buy the hype either.

[Ohio Joe]

Just a thought here... (I've been known to have one now and again)

I'm just throwing this out here;

I wonder if over the years, the old saying "shooting in your barrel" has become the idea of sorts - of seasoning a barrel, or vise-versa?

It's been my experience that after a'while of shooting a new barrel, my barrel bore's seem to smooth out which makes extended shooting (upwards of twenty shots without swabbing) and cleaning, quite easy...

So I guess to me, seasoning a barrel is "shooting in" that barrel and smoothing out any sharp Rifling Lands, and the patch is also taking care of the Grooves.

Could all this "Seasoning a barrel" just be a misunderstanding of what is actually "Shooting in a barrel"   

[AxelP]

I have to agree with Ohio Joe. In most shooting disciplines, breaking in the barrel or "shooting in" or polishing by cycling the moving parts and shooting ammo thru the barrel is essential for proper function and ultimate accuracy. Car engines, and even computers benefit from that too.

-Shooters don't even worry about sighting in an air rifle at all until they have shot at least 175 to 500 pellets thru it.
-New semi-auto pistols need shooting time to polish the action so there are fewer misfeeds etc.

Muzzleloaders will often burnish the rifling or polish the bore with scotchbrite pads, polishing compounds, or just shooting a number of shots etc. I know for a fact that the guns I shoot more, tend to load and clean easier. If that is seasoning, I am all for it... but it does not need any new and improved whizbang super lube. And it does not require not properly cleaning the corrosive fouling out of the bore. Common sense proper cleaning and greasing/rust protection, and of course a lot of shooting, is all that is needed. Every time I hear about a magic lube, or a modern contrivance that is way better than whatever I am currently using or what the old guys did, I have to think-- geez, folks have been shooting and cleaning lubing and shooting muzzleloaders for 400 years plus.

I am not in this hobby to reinvent the wheel. I am in it to shoot the way the old dead guys shot as best as I can figure it out. If they survived without magic lubes, or special plastic quick loaders and whatnot, I figure I can too. I dont see any evidence or reason to let my bore rot with corrosive residue to make it better.

Heck, I don't even do that with my prized cast iron fry pan... I use it then clean the gunk out and I keep it clean and well greased. The more I use it and grease it, the slicker an egg slides around on it when cooking. The only time it sticks is due to old food stuck on the bottom...

Ken
   

[Uncle Russ]

Good post Ken!
It seems you covered the bases pretty well, at least as far as I'm concerned. 

You used one term that I truly admire, and believe in very strongly....and that is burnished.
Maybe, just maybe, burnished is the term many are looking for when they are actually saying "seasoning"...

But you did leave me hanging......
Do you turn those eggs over, or are they sunny-side up? 

Now that iron skillet is a seasoning I can work with. They are hard to beat.

Russ...

[prairie dog]

I read the article.  My cleaning methods are vastly different.  NO it's not the Dutch Schultz method.

First, modern steel barrels do not season like soft iron will.  I have tons of cast iron cookware and I'm most particular how those are cleaned and seasoned. You won't find a better non-stick cookware than properly cared for cast iron. 

My personal experience is every gun barrel is a law unto it's self.  My Lyman Great Plains rifle refuses to group with bore butter, mink oil, or any grease type of lube.  It will shoot lights out and has won many shooting competitions, awards and ribbons with Ballistol lube and the Dutch Schultz method. But it requires a very tight load to reach that level of performance.  It just doesn't shine if I can't use special made starters and a mallet to load it.

 Other rifles I have are not that particular. Those begin to shoot very good groups before the load becomes that tight. They can be easily loaded from the bag with the wooden ramrod and are more appropriate for rendezvous shoots.   

Other rifles ( with shallower groves than the GPR ) will shoot just fine with grease lubes.  However all those will shoot better with a spit patch or the Ballistol lube.  Once you find the right mixture and patch thickness.

In my experience some barrels will shoot fine with grease lubes others will not.  Spit is fine for match shooting but no good for hunting. The right mix of Ballistol combined with the correct thickness of patching works fine for hunting and produces the tightest groups in all my rifles, pistols and smooth-bores.

I've concluded that most rifles will shoot acceptably well with bore butter or grease.  Some barrels that seem to be inaccurate will shoot extremely well with one load combination and only that particular combination.
I am also convinced that any gun can be made to shoot tighter groups by following the load development as described by Dutch. 

Why do some shooters swear by the methods others swear at?
Largely because most rifle barrels will shoot more accurately than most shooters are capable of shooting in the offhand position. If the rifle and load meets the shooters accuracy expectations no load development will be done. All is well. 

I would also guess that one of those particular barrels that will shoot lights out with one particular load but shoots shot gun patterns with every other load gets replaced or traded off before that magic load is discovered.

So my two cents is; Hey, if it's working to your satisfaction God Bless you and carry on. 
If it isn't, change what you are doing until you find what does work.  If you want the short path to solving that puzzle I recommend Dutch's method for load development.  I find it very similar to my methods of hand-loading the most accurate loads for center fire rifles.  The difference being the muzzle loader has a different set of variables to work with.   
 

[doggoner]

This is a good read on lubes.   https://user.xmission.com/~drudy/hist_text-arch5/msg00973.html

doggoner