GOEX vs. Swiss

[Semisane]

I’ve always been a GOEX guy. I hardly ever shoot any of the black powder subs. Also, I’ve never tried Swiss black powder even though I’ve seen numerous reports that it produces better accuracy, is cleaner burning and load for load yields higher and more consistent velocities than GOEX.

So after many years of resisting the lure of Swiss I decided to get some and see for myself. This is a report of my side-by-side comparison of Swiss and GOEX in the 2F and 3F granulations of each.

For this exercise I chose to use my TC Renegade with a .45 caliber 1:30” twist Green Mountain barrel and shoot full bore conicals. I chose this gun and bullet for three reasons; the gun wears a Simmons 4X ProDiamond shotgun scope to keep aiming errors to a minimum, it’s already zeroed in for the load I planned to shoot, and I’ve shot the gun and bullet enough to know what kind of accuracy can be expected. 

I installed a new AMPCO nipple at the beginning the shooting session and followed the following procedures for the test,

1. Four targets were shot at 100 yards, with five shots on each target and a different powder used for each target. All shots were over a chronograph 10 feet from the muzzle.

2. The first shot on each target was from a cold clean barrel with a three to five minute cooling period between each of the following four shots.

3. The bore was wiped between each shot with both sides of a fresh patch lightly moistened with 91% Isopropyl alcohol - one stroke down and up with each side. The bore was fully cleaned between targets.

4. For the first shot on each target, the bullet was seated until it just touched the powder. Then a stop collar on the loading rod was locked in place 1/8” above the muzzle and the load compressed that one-eighth inch. The stop collar remained locked in that position for the following four shots to assure the consistent load compression. The stop collar was reset in this manner for each target.

5. Pre-weighed powder charges of 85 grains actual weight were used.

6. The bullets were flat nose conicals cast from pure soft lead then sized and lubed to .452 diameter. They were weight sorted to assure that all were between 464.0 and 464.5 grains, and inspected to assure all had undamaged bases with sharp corners.

7. A 1/2” diameter 1/8” thick unlubed wool wad was used under the base of the bullets.

8. Winchester #11 magnum percussion caps from the same tin were used.

9. Shots were from a bench using a Caldwell shooting rest under the foreend and a rabbit ear bag under the butt stock.

Here are the charges ready to be shot.



Here’s the shooting bench and range.




Here are the four targets.









Here are the cleaning patches that were used to wipe the bore between the fourth and fifth shot with each powder.



And here’s a summary of the results.



You may draw your own conclusions. It’s pretty clear that Swiss produces significantly higher velocities. I didn’t find a noticeable difference with respect to the degree of fouling produced by the two powders. However, that may be because I was wiping the bore between each shot. Results may be different with a long shot string without wiping. I’ll never know because I always wipe between shots.

With respect to accuracy potential, I found no significant difference between the two powders – at least not within my shooting ability or with this particular bullet and load.  One day I’ll try a similar side-by-side comparison with patched balls in my .54 Great Plains flintlock. I’ll likely be a GOEX guy forever. I like the stuff and I like supporting an American company.

[prairie dog]

Thanks for sharing that.

[Ohio Joe]

Thanks for the test info Semisane.

I'm Goex all the way - will never change unless forced to.

However,,, I am curious to see how the two would perform with patch & ball - 5 shot string with no swabbing between shots,,, and let me explain why... For many of us here we shoot the primitive Rendezvous events and load from the bag... If we get a chance to swab it's usually a quick spit patch between relays - then on to the next set of targets. I've always found the Goex to be quite reliable with little deviation between those five shot strings (and of course I'm spit patching when I shoot these events) - so it does make me wonder / and I have no doubt / that any load  with either powder will perform closely once the best load is worked up for one's primary shooting purpose.

I'll tell ya,,, I wouldn't sneeze at any of those groups you shot! 

[Bigsmoke]

Back about 20 years ago or so, when I was starting to get really excited about big bore rifles, I did some tests on various powder brands with a 12 bore and a 20 bore rifle.  The results, targets, etc. have long since been consigned to the recycle bin, but I do recollect various things about the results.
I was amazed with the velocity that Pyrodex Select gave.  With a 200 grain charge, it was faster than any other brand of Ffg that I shot.  If only there wasn't that annoying momentary hang fire.
Wano was the slowest and the dirtyest powder I tried.
Goex was very consistent.
And Swiss was slightly faster than the Goex.  I did keep a pound of Swiss for hunting, but I felt that for plinking/target shooting, it was not worth the increase in cost.
Bottom line here was that GOEX testing confirmed my belief that it gives the best bang for the buck.

[Uncle Russ]

Semisane, My own thoughts, and experience pretty much match your own conclusions.

But first I have to agree with Bigsmoke, I have also used Wano Powder. I won 5 Lb. of it once, but after just a few shots I gave every bit of it away. It is simply horrible powder as far as I'm concerned.
Still yet, I have heard/read of others that just loved it....go figure.

I will add a little something to what You said prior to see if you may also be in agreement....

I also shoot a lot over a chronograph, and I have experienced a better SD (standard deviation) resulting in a lower ES (extreme spread) when shooting with Swiss compared to Goex.
However, unlike smokeless, this has meant absolutely nothing when it came to accuracy with both Goex and Swiss.
Also, I can not distinguish the difference in the recovered patches, whether I wipe between shots or every 3rd shot, or thereabouts.

I have found that "Bouncing" the ramrod off of the load produces better accuracy, compared to loading with a straight one or two smooth pushes load with the ramrod.....did that make any sense in how I wrote it?
Still yet, when hunting, and feel I need a quick second shot, I don't think I've ever slowed down enough to actually bounce the ramrod on the load. If I did, I can't ever remember doing it.
Yet I know, in my heart, that a good straight, well packed, powder column, with a tightly seated patched ball, will give me the best accuracy I can hold.

Using the bouncing method, I can see no, or very little difference on the chronograph insofar as SD or ES, no matter which powder I'm using, but I can definitely see it in downrange accuracy.

Right now I can't even get to a open range. Everything in my neck of the woods is snowed under.
But a few weeks from now, perhaps even a month or so, I will be posting on the performance of one of my guns.

Russ...

[Semisane]

I've never been a ramrod bouncer Uncle Russ, though I have found I get better accuracy with conicals when the load is tightly compressed. Note that in this test I compressed the first shot in each string 1/8" after the bullet first touched the powder charge, and locked a stop collar on the rod so as to reproduce the same compression for following shots. It pretty much took all of my (considerable) weight leaning on the steel loading rod to get that 1/8" compression.

However, when shooting flintlocks I tend to seat the ball just barely against the powder charge with no compression in the belief the uncompressed charge ignites faster in a flinter. However I have no scientific reason upon which to base that belief and have not explored the accuracy difference in a compressed vs. not compressed load in any of my flinters. I guess I need to do that one day just for grins and giggles.

I also agree with your observations regarding ES and SD when it comes to black powder, and often get tighter groups when those numbers were pretty large.

Snowed under?    I was shooting in 72⁰ weather with 68% humidity. 

[Flycaster1977]

Very cool comparison. It clearly shows thw swiss has a little better velocities, but i wonder if that extra speed is worth the money. It looks to me like the 3f goex might just be the best bang for the buck. 

I like that each load is fairly close across all 5 shots, regardless of the powder used. It looks like no matter the powder you like, they are both good consistent powders.

[Uncle Russ]

Semisane...you owe it to yourself to at least try the "Bounce Test"....

For one thing, if there is any gap between the ball and the powder, the rod won't bounce, and that could be looked at as a safety feature.
If the patched ball is well seated you get a nice little bounce and a particular well-defined sound...I can't describe it, but if you should try this you will quickly recognize the sound.

For years I consider this unnecessary, it didn't make any kind of sense and I thought there was no real reason behind doing it.
I thought a Patched Ball pushed down tight on the powder is the end of the game, and no further action was needed, but then after trying it a few times, I learned to like it.

But that is just me, and like all things Muzzleloading, YMMV.

Russ...



 

[Ohio Joe]

I've been a ramrod bouncer for a long time now. I don't recall when I first started doing this, but I do feel it contributed to tighter grouping of shots. 

[Bigsmoke]

Very interesting subject about the ram rod bouncing.  I come at that from a slightly different viewpoint.
First, I have never been much of a "bouncer".  If nothing else, I always thought a person who stood there loading and bouncing their rod looked kind of "different", if you get what I mean.
Also, I am not much for using the undergun rod.  I am a firm advocate of using a brass range rod for several reasons.  They won't break, they are heavy duty enough to do the work for you, rather than making the shooter do all the work and should the occasion come about where one has to pull the ball, they are a lot easier to work with than the stubby little anemic undergun rod.
In years gone by, I had the pleasure to meet a couple of guys from Texas that were initially touting their magnum BP hunting rifle in 12 bore, and it was something else.  I think the company was called Teton Arms, but that could be wrong.  But they also had a range rod that they had developed and it was pretty neat.  The handle was somewhat of a two piece device and the outer part was spring loaded so that when you seated the ball you continued to apply pressure and when you could feel the set screw come up and through a hole in the top of the handle, you had achieved the correct pressure for seating the ball.  IIRC, that is about 35 psi.  Of course, the set screw is adjustable to fine tune your results.  I have been using that little dandy since then.  It seems to work pretty good.
And, an observation.  In my days of target shooting, I honestly don't recall ever being bested by a "bouncer", and I have shot against quite a few of them. 
Bottom line here is, if it works for you, great, continue doing it.  But for me, I prefer using a nice brass range rod of the correct length and diameter.

[Nessmuk]

My 2 cents, just a non-scientific observation at the range. Most guys who hunt primarily, "bounce". Most guys who primarily target shoot don't "bounce".

Just an observation.

[Uncle Russ]

My 2 cents, just a non-scientific observation at the range. Most guys who hunt primarily, "bounce". Most guys who primarily target shoot don't "bounce".

Just an observation.

That my friend is a very astute observation.

I ALWAYS have a brass rod "at the range" but I have never carried one while hunting.

Russ...

Edited to add... I did have a rifle with a brass rod!
I once owned a little .32 cal Rifle from CVA. I had a brass rod made for that little rifle as I was continually breaking the hickory rods. This little rod added a bit of weight that I found pleasingly satisfying when shooting, and I never spent another nickel on hickory rods. The wife of our good friend Jerry Bullard now owns that little rifle and she loves it.

Russ...

[Ohio Joe]

My 2 cents, just a non-scientific observation at the range. Most guys who hunt primarily, "bounce". Most guys who primarily target shoot don't "bounce".

Just an observation.

That is a good observation, and one I do agree with.

However,,, myself, I only use a wood ram rod whether hunting or at the Range. Why you may be wondering? Well, my target shooting is 99% of the time with my hunting rifles, so I always try to stay with the exact loading technique except one,,, I don't spit patch a hunting load but rather use a lubed patch as I don't want the potential of a rust ring developing in the rifle bore from extended periods of a patch -n- ball load during hunting season.

With this said, I do agree with your observation to include many who do use different rods for different situations.