Question regarding locks....

[Uncle Russ]

Would a Back Action percussion lock be anywhere near appropriate for a full stock Leeman style rifle?

I've never seen one, just kinda wondering if it would appear "out-of-place" and look a little goofy...
I like the style of the Leeman, and I like the style, and performance of the back action.
Sooo, Anybody see anything wrong with putting one on?

Uncle Russ...

[rollingb]

Would a Back Action percussion lock be anywhere near appropriate for a full stock Leeman style rifle?

I've never seen one, just kinda wondering if it would appear "out-of-place" and look a little goofy...
I like the style of the Leeman, and I like the style, and performance of the back action.
Sooo, Anybody see anything wrong with putting one on?

Uncle Russ...

Russ, that was also my initial thought when I first read your question   ,.... I think the Back-Action lock was pretty much "post" fullstock era.

[cb]

Joe Meek's Old Sally has a full-stock back action - the existing gun has been shortened and was turned into a take down buggy rifle (thus that piece of brass in the forestock ala the old CVA's) and it may/probably has a replacement barrel . I'll check around and see if I can find some other full-stock examples wit a BA lock - while the halfstock became popular circa 1830, full stock rifles continued to be made into the 1870's and IIRC even the 1880's - Leman was one such maker.

Offhand I can't think of an actual Leman with a BA lock, but there were thousands of "Lancaster" style rifles made by many different makers - dependent on how well you want a piece documented, I'd build it and just not call it a Leman.......

[Wyoming Mike]

I have never seen an HTG Leman repro with a back action lock but that should not stop you.  Using a precarved Leman stock you could make a generic plains type rifle with a back action lock that would be completly appropriate.

Say you put on a flatter buttplate, different trigger guard and maybe a little differnt capbox.  You would have the Leman lines but have something that would be a more generic type plains rifle that were sold by the thousands in the early percussion era.

[Uncle Russ]

I'd build it and just not call it a Leman.......

Sounds reasonable to me, CB

WM, I was thinking of VERY generic, as in NO capbox.

Here's the deal.....I recently bought a blank full-stock from Steve. I have an "extra" .54 GM barrel, a butt plate that is appropriate for a Leman, and a set of triggers. All I need to buy is a lock.

I really do like the looks and function of a back action, although I have seen, and actually shot, only one in my entire life....and that one was a half-stock.
Like Rondo said, I was thinking the back action came along about the time of the Plains Rifle and half-stocks, but I don't know that to be a fact....obivously.
 
Somehow, I feel you can get away with quite a bit on a half-stock, but a full stock should probably resemble something that is known, otherwise it just might end up looking a bit dorkie.

This "thing" that I end up building will certainly not have to pass muster anywhere, as I don't attend those kinds of events.....the majority of events I do get to go to are strictly "run whatcha brung" affairs.

The gun will be nothing more than a hunting and plain ol' fun type rifle... which sounds okay.
But, at the same time, nobody wants their friends shaking their heads and giggling behind their back.

[Minnesota Mike]

Ok - just what is a 'back action' lock?

r/
MM

[sse]

Ok - just what is a 'back action' lock?

I've got a few old wall hanger smoothies that are back action, so I know what they look like, but not sure exactly why...

[Uncle Russ]

Ok - just what is a 'back action' lock?

Mike, this is what L&R has to say about a back action lock.....

"L&R Back Action Percussion Lock
This is my favorite style of percussion lock simply because of the speed and short hammer throw. These factors together make it perfect for competition shooting. In comparison to other caplocks, its internal design is very different resulting in a powerful shortened stroke. Originally designed to be placed side-by-side on double barrel late model shotguns."

This is they way one looks with Target Sights..........



I do anticipate some problems installing this particular lock on the stock I have, as a tracing from a back action in the TOTW catalog tells me I won't have a whole lot of wood to play with...but, yat-ta-hay, all this is still in the planning stages and I have all winter to figure it out.

Uncle Russ...

[cb]

Like Rondo said, I was thinking the back action came along about the time of the Plains Rifle and half-stocks, but I don't know that to be a fact....obivously.

About right - but full-stocks didn't just stop being made after half-stocks became popular. I believe the use of back action locks on the less expensive double smoothies and on pocket pistols that started being produced around 1830 had an influence on that locks popularity.........
On the other hand there were back action flinters at least on some of the pistols of the day.....

[Uncle Russ]

Good point, Chuck

Unless someone gives me a pretty good reason not to go ahead with this, I think I'm going to jump in with both feet as soon as hunting season is over....
The Beaverthang and a couple of the guys are talking about three weeks on the other side of the mountain.
 
Going to do my best to make this hunting trip since I now have brand new synthetic cartlidge in both knees, and my lower back....I'm actually getting around better than I have in the past couple of years, I suspect I should take advantage of that first, since this synthetic stuff comes with no guarantees.

Uncle Russ...

[Gambia]

For information on back-action locks look at the discussion forum shotgun section  on  http://www.mlagb.com.
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door

[Captchee]

I have read that the popularity of the back action was do to  that it was cheaper to produce .
 I also have read of the back action  called a French lock . Now as I understand it , this dates back to  the flintlock AND full stock rifle .
 Two American makers that come to mind would be  Samuel Smith   there is one of his rifles in the  Laidacker collection that actually has 2 back action flint locks that fire two loads from one barrel . The lines are very much along those of Issac Hains  though the comb line is much straighter  that rifle is I believe dated to 1805 Or there abouts
Another maker  that comes to mind would be  a man named J Hoffman who also produced full stock  rifles with back action locks  .
 Now as to the question .
 No Russ I don’t think it would be out of place at all  as long as you not looking at copying leman .
 There are a lot of examples of target rifles  that have a strong base as  plains rifles . Its easy to see the evolution there .
 Past that one of the most wonderful rifles I ever saw was a back action made by a maker named Andrew Waffling . From Pennsylvania.
 I saw that rifle up in Cody  the last time I was there , simply wonderful  half stock . Silver nose cap  and belly inlay , toe and  large brass patch box
 There is a black and white of it in  Dillon”s “the Kentucky rifle “
 You will also find  black an whites of some others as well as the two makers I spoke of above that have full stocks .
 half stock do though  show a more common use
 I would also recommend  if you can get or look at a copy  of The Muzzleloading Cap lock Rifle , By Ned Roberts . Its full of back action half stock rifles  both target and  simple plains rifles
 So IMO what you would be doing would not look out of place , was done , very often .
 Maybe not by Leeman but enough other makers who had rifles  similar that yours would pass.
 i would also say this .  the back action needs a heavier wrist area  so you wont be able to take it down as much . well you could but they would be prown to breakage . but again it can be done and was done

as to old sally  joe meaks rifle .  if your refuring to the one  in the Oregon musuam claimed to be old sally , there is  alot of  discussion and actual some pretty solid proof that it is not nore can it be old sally . while it may have been  owned by joe meeks , it apears do to its markings and numbers to actualy be a german contract rifle  from the texas emigrants

OHHH and russ , i bet i have a couple dozen  original back actions .
 you pay the shipping cost or wait tell Monroe and  any one of them is yours .
 you want a dubble screw or single screw

[cb]

as to old sally joe meaks rifle . if your refuring to the one in the Oregon musuam claimed to be old sally , there is alot of discussion and actual some pretty solid proof that it is not nore can it be old sally . while it may have been owned by joe meeks , it apears do to its markings and numbers to actualy be a german contract rifle from the texas emigrants

Cap'n - I got to get up close and personal with that rifle back in the 70's and made a copy of it, only my "copy" was extrapolated to make it as it would have been before being cut down/modified.
IIRC (and it's been 30+ years since I inspected it and I no longer have the copy or my notes - but it was a great gun!) the markings you mention are all on the barrel and that along with some other things about the gun, is why I stated that IMO the barrel is very likely a replacement. It seems that it is those barrel markings alone are why some have stated it to be a German piece, which the current barrel undoubtedly is. Again IMO a replacement barrel explains the discrepancies nicely since the rest of the rifle, including the furniture, is a pretty typical eastern styled rifle of the 1830's.
If you've got more info that says otherwise or just adds to teh discussion I'm more than willing to listen and would love to hear it.....

[Captchee]

actually we were able to remover the barrel , the stock carries the same serial number as a queens issue  that is listed  as presentation from Germany. also one of the other names carved into the rifle actualy is from what i understand , a name on that queens list . that i believe along with the  wring on the barrel  pretty much puts everything in a line

.  while there is no doubt the gun was owned at one time by joe meeks , if we are talking about the same gun , its  clearly made  for  the German  government , not a re barrel or restock .
 sorry to tell you that but thats the plain fact of it .
 but even if we were to take old joes word about it , then which one would you have to go by . that this is  old sally even though this doesn’t fit  or that  he lost old sally and almost his life to the Injions as he put it .
 A very close friend of mine  Jess Eblin was able to do a part by part study of that rifle , starting i believe 3 years ago . He has traced it all the way back to the German Queen who commissioned these rifle to be made  . As I said before . Jess found makings on the stock that coinside with the barrel markings and together show on the list of rifles made  and said rifles matches to a T two other such rifles  that  are also on the list . Each of those rifle carry an individual serial numbers  and was recorded to who and where it was presented ..
 The supposed  meeks rifle  matches and is listed  an since he claims a rifle called old sally prior to  that date , that rifle cannot be old sally un less he had more then one old sally  . Which considering the  romanticizing  acclaimed to meeks , that very well could be the case
 Currently the from what I was told yesterday by jess , the history channel has his study and has  solicited a  2year I believe it is  ,,,,freeze on jess being able to publish his “ Very” in depth 3 year study . His finding and records support that yes , this was a  rifle old joe owned . But it is not the reputable old Sally that he  so often stated claim about
supposedly from what jess has said , the HC is compiling information on a up coming show about  miss represented museum pieces or something to that effect , im not sure  
 But I guess jess was told his study would be checked out , confirmed and  possibly be part of an up coming show ?
 don’t know all the ins and out of that part of things . that’s jess’s baby