Sadistic buttstock is killing me!!

[mark davidson]

Voyager, Point well made and well taken. The ORIGINAL subject was a very pointed buttstock that I wanted to alter. Of course, it could not be left at that and we had to again get into the "magnumitis" discussion. I have contributed as much as anyone else to the argument and to keeping it alive off track. So far it has been civil on all sides but sometimes bluntly honest.  If we are sharing constructively then it ought to continue. If not, I have no problem with this being the end of it.

[rollingb]

Well, the simple facts with muzzleloaders are,.... velocity and accuracy do NOT increase in relationship to the powder charge used after a certain amount. (so "range" doesn't either)

When working up a load, there is a point where an increase in the powder charge is out of proportion to any further increase in velocity, and that "point" is refered to as the "POINT OF DIMINISHED RETURNS".
,.... in order to find out where that point is,... one MUST use a chrony and "punch" some paper,... because accuracy often starts to suffer BEFORE a load's "PODR" is reached.

I've been a dedicated hunter my whole life, but I'd have a poor idea of what my load (and rifle) is actually doing, IF I didn't punch paper also.

Mark,.... tell me this,.... what "increases in velocities" are you getting from each additional 10 gr. of powder over and above 140 gr. in your .62?
If you're chronigraphing your loads, I'm sure you're seeing much less of an increase in velocity, as powder is still being increased.
I'm gonna guess (from the results I've personally seen with my .54 and .58 caliburs) that your increased velocity will probably be somewhere in the single digits before you reach a max load of 200 grs in your .62.

Personaly,... I consider any load that's past it's "PODR",.. to be less accurate and a waste of good powder.

[Bigsmoke]

Yes, I would also be interested in knowing what the chronograph is saying about the various charges in your rifle, Mark.

As I recall my .62 was in the 1400 + fps range with 135 grains, which is my target load.  For each 10 grain increment, there was a definite increase and it (I) maxed out at 200 grains at about 2,000 fps, depending on the powder used.  Pyrodex Select gave me a slight edge (2004 fps) on GOEX Cartridge (1,994 fps).  This is with true Forsythe style rifling of 1:104, .006 deep, narrow land, wide groove in a 32" barrel.

Again Mark, what is the rate of twist on your rifle?

[rollingb]

John,... do you remember what the velocity increase was, by the time you went from 190 grs. to 200 grs.?

...., do you remember what your powder charge was when the velocity "increase" started to taper off (PODR) with your particular barrel?

If you settled on 135 grs. as your "target load",... is that because that was the "most accurate" charge for your particular barrel?

[Bigsmoke]

RB
1.  If I hadn't moved, I would just meander out to the shop and look up that info.  However, I think it is stored securely in a storage locker in North Idaho, along with a whole bunch of other stuff.  For some reason, the top end figures stayed in my mind, probably because I found it interesting that the Pyrodex would provide a slightly faster MV than the real thing.  Even more amazing was the testing I did with my 8 bore rifle where it beat GOEX Ffg by 90 fps with the maximum charge I had settled on of 300 grains.  This gave me cause to think that Pyrodex was more efficient, the larger the bore of the gun.  I talked to the good folks at Hodgdon and they hadn't a clue, as no one there had tested anything that big.  Just an interresting little side factoid.

2.  See above, don't really recall, but it seems that I was getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 50-075 +/- fps increase with each additional 10 grains.

3.  Yes, I did  a whole afternoon shooting on the bench, testing various loads and lubes and patches and came up with a one hole group at 25 yards with 135 Grains Ffg, .610 round ball, OxYoke .015 dry patch lubed with Ol' Thunder and RWS musket caps.  I have found that over 150 grains in any of my big bore guns, the patch starts to suffer severe burning and for the heavy charges, I use an OxYoke 20 ga lubed cushion wad between the powder and the PRB.  Over 135 grains, it started to open up a bit, to the point where I think I was getting about a 1 1/2" group with 200 grains.  That would still be minute of elk at ranges I would shoot, but not good enough for target work.

One of these days I will get back up to my storage locker and reclaim all my stuff.  Will do some more testing when I get the chronograph back too.  Until then, I just have to rely upon a faulty memory.

[mark davidson]

Rollingb/Bigsmoke,  Thanks for your input; we are back on track sharing quality information and advice.  I have not done my chronograph work yet as I am in the early stages of load development. Rollingb, John likely has already answered the question you asked me assuming my results are similar to his. 1,400 fps up to 2,000fps is a significant increase in velocity and well worth the extra powder cost and recoil to gain the trajectory and energy improvement.  I do own a chronograph but have not gotten to that part of my development yet as I am working on accuracy first with John's approximate 140grain 2F load as my bottomthreshold for now. The difference in point of impact at just 60 yards was six or seven inches with 180 grains versus 100 grains. My last session was with all 140grain loads and overpowder wads and factory precut and lubed patches and a bigger ball than I had used before.  Going to the overpowder wad and a .610 ball instead of .600 ball gave me really tight sub one inch two shot groups at 75 yards!  Soon as I get to shoot again I will see if I can duplicate that performance at 100 yards. If I do I will begin working upwards with the powder in 10 grain increments till accuracy goes south or till the recoil gets truly unpleasant. I will chronograph along the way and will have some real numbers for you then but that will be a few weeks. I do want to find the PODR for my rifle and and an accurate load as close to 2,000fps as I can get it in .62 cal.

[Uncle Russ]

Interesting reading, John

I have, over the years, found a few oddities me own self!  :?

Uncle Russ..