Sadistic buttstock is killing me!!

[FG1]

Steve , do you add a little 50/50 solder to the mix to get the ww to fill out mould  better ? Ive had to do that with pistol and 45 rifle bullets .

[jbullard1]

Steve , do you add a little 50/50 solder to the mix to get the ww to fill out mould  better ? Ive had to do that with pistol and 45 rifle bullets .

Frank
 I'm not Steve but I will insert my response anyway.
I run my alloys HOT and do not have a problem with filling out.
I deal with the frost finish by putting the cast balls in my Lyman vibratory case cleaner with some small hunks of steel wool and running it
My problem is with pure lead and filling the mold  

[FG1]

Jerry , when I cast bullets straight ww I would get little shrink divots until I added the bit of tin 1/2lb to 9.5lb . Evidently must be different critter bein a sphere  

[FG1]

Thanks Steve , I'll give it a go

[Captchee]

im with the other fellas here . i shoot both hard and soft balls . for hunting , only hard balls .
 i also cast hot  and have no issue with shrinking . Now frosting yes .
 This used to bother me . But then a gunsmith friend of mine turned me into tumbling .
  What I did was buy a cheep rock tumbler from harbor freight. 15 bucks if I recall .  This tumbler has a rubber  canister  and needs no medium to smooth the balls . . For my 54 , I put 50-75 bas in the canister and et them tumble for 1 hour  again NO medium . The bals all come out as smooth  as a babies hind end .  A very bright high polished grey . Much better then anything  you ever saw from hornady or lyman .
 As to the isssue with hard balls . I agree with steve here .
 I think to often people get confused wit comparing center fire with muzzleloading . They are 2 different animals . With center fire  if you re load , you have the choice of  many . Many different bullet designs . Each design has its own characteristics  both in flight and  after penetration.. As such folks IMO get caught up in expansion. They want a  projectile that expands on contact . don’t get me wrong , this is good  in most cases, as it transfers the energy  of the projectile  . But remember with center fire rifles , you have the velocity to    to off set  much of the friction / drag caused by that expansion   as such ,  a higher   velocity ,added to a smaller round  will produce a lot more energy.
 But  we shoot slower and thus use a bigger  projectile .  So we have the same frontal area  thought flight  as that center fire  projectile has after contact . Ever compared an expanded   , say a 30.06   170 grain boattail  to a 54 cal  rb ?
So now imagine if you will that same 54 cal rb , expanding  even ½ the amount that  the boattail did . Then take into account that  the RB is  inherently  travailing at a much lower speed . Exspantion of the soft RB will  result in  loss of penetration. Where a ball of the same size wich resists expansion, will have less drag  and thus carry on through .

 Butas I said before . This is a trade off . When a projectile, “any  projectile “ travels all the way through a target    it means that it has not  transferred all its capable energy into  that target . A perfect situation would be for the projectile to travel all the way through  but simply fall out the off side  of the target . Thus having no energy to  continue  traveling.
 So when you see these  modern muzzleloading projectile  touting 2000 ft lbs at 100 yards , remember that  if these travel all the way through the targets , they are not transferring 2000 ftlbs into the target . In fact they may be ony transferring ½ that  in some cases .
  That all being said . For myself , I  want very little expansion. In other words I rely on the size of the ball  and the ability of that ball to hold together , breaking bone and tearing its way through  and then breaking bone on its way out .
 The soft ball however also has it attributes  in that  when place in the boiler room , it doesn need to travil all the way through . All it has to do is tear up  the hart , lungs . In wich case , shot placement is the key.  Relay its they key for both projectiles IMO

 As to powder charges . I see no need to use heavy charges  other then IF that charge give the best accuracy  in your rifle .
 See at a give after a given charge , adding more powder , does little . Infact if we look at the lyman charts we can see that  after about 110 grains , adding more powder  produces little benefit in  FTLBS or Velocities
 Take a 32 inch 54 cal shooting  100 grains of  2F vs. 120 grains of 2F
 We see that  the added 20 grains   has bumped our  pressure by 1400PSI but it has only yielded 39 additional ftlbs  at 100 . It also only adds another 37fps . To give you some idea ast to what that is .  A hammer hitting your thumb has more energy then  that added 20 grains gave you . that’s marginal at best   and simply not worth the added use of powder .  .
 Simply put , you cannot  get  the same damage effect from traditional muzzleloading that you do from center fires , tell such time as you raise the velocities of the projectile  into the center fire realm . While you may have a larger primary wound channel , you simple will not see the  same secondary wound channel caused by  a high velocity , high expansion  projectile

[mark davidson]

I want an EXIT wound. I do not care how much wasted energy hits the ground beyond the critter. An exit wound provides total decompression of the chest cavity. It provides a better blood trail. It drastically reduces the odds of a plugged hole and no blood trail.  From a treestand or elevated position, a single high hole in a critter makes trailing hard. A high entry with a low offside exit makes the icing on the cake. With Mlers we have more than enough bore diameter to provide for a big hole.  There is simply no excuse for no exit. Whatever combo provides good trajectory and good accuracy and reliable exits from all reasonable angles is what I am after.  ("reasonable angles" to me means quartering to or away and broadsides)

[Captchee]

then if all your worried about is a hole . i would used eather hard  lead or Brass rb . you will get a completepass through hole on  most any size game  regardless of the caliber you chose . within the acceptable ranges of a muzzleloader that is . and you wont need 17o grains of powder to do it , i would also recomend going to a 1 bore . after all bigger hole . better yet , a wall gun would solve all your problems . fast and easy  

[rollingb]

[mark davidson]

Well, I think I made it clear that I wanted both a degree of expansion and an exit but maybe I didn't. Is both too much to ask for? A big flat lead washer inside a critter may be efficient but it does not contribute much to recovery if there is no blood trail and the critter runs a while.  An exit wound even if somewhat smaller would seem preferable than no exit. So laugh all you like. I will be home cooking backstrap having the final laugh while you are still looking for your perfectly shot deer that happened to run off with your super efficient flat washer inside. :-)  Captchee, I really do not expect such mirth from you who has already admitted to shooting elk with conicals for better penetration and quick recovery. However, a good laugh is a good laugh no matter at whose expense. :-)  I gotta scoot for the day. I will play with you boys tomorrow maybe if you promise to play nice. ;-)

[rollingb]

Now Mark,.... I think the "wall gun" comment was pretty funny. (don't you?)

[Captchee]

mark  im not making fun of you . im serious .
 if a hole is what you want  then make a hole  , no issue .
 but if  you want a hole , then bigger is better . so go with a 1 bore and dont worry about the issue . not only will you not have to worry about tracking but  you wont  really have to worry about shot placment or exspantion eather . just get her done .

 as to conicals . lets make this real clear . i dont chose them for penetration , i use them for shear energy  of their wieght . their shear knock down power and thump
 i dont need a blood trail to  track game . sure its nice but ha if there isnt one  ok so be it .
Tracking is a very good skill to learn . Its in demand . There is always a need  for trackers  with mountain search an rescue , local police  departments , even guides


 see for me ,  call it to many years in the service , if you like . but i find nothing enjoyable about killing . now i do like to hunt  and i dont have a problem with killing . but if i dont feel comfortable  with a given shot ,,,  i dont take it . i dont care how big  the animal may be . there will be another time . myself i enjoy the hunt  and the challenge. So you may very well be home, way before I am . But  I submit that I will be still out there enjoying the hunt  long after you are home  .

 now im not riding you here or trying to ridicule you at all   . But it just seems to me that you are trying  to  simply disprove what  everyone is telling  you . So let me tell you something  as fact .as a hunter and IMO a friend .
  IF you hunt long enough , you will lose game . I don’t care what it is you are using . Bow , modern rifle , cross bow , muzzleloading or muzzleloader  for that mater  any size you can think of in the above weapons . You will lose game .
 The only way to reduce that , is to  have proper shot placement . Proper control . Learn when to just say ; ahhh not good and back away . Instead of  taking the risk . You do that and any of the calibers will  give you  good results with a RB . Forget that and you will be relying on your skill as a tracker. .

See , all , well most of us here have already been where you are now . But we were lucky enough to have someone  grab hold of our ear and say  LISTEN!!!
 Trust me . If you do that , your going to be happy with the results you get . Be it shooting soft RB , hard lead RB or conicals .
 Turn away from it  and your going to find yourself floundering  with  the same quandrums  for a very long time tell one day  you find that what you were being told was true .
see no mater the weapon you chose , or the size of that weapon , it will not take the place of  your skill .  it cannot and will not suddenly give you knowlage that you have not learned . there is no majic bullet but for the one  you use between your ears
 that’s all im saying sir .
 Im not bad mouthing you  in any way . Just trying to give you sound advice  that I learned the hard way , long ago  

[Mitch]

Well said!!

[mario]

+1 Captchee!

Mark, the thing I don't understand is that you want an exit wound, don't care about wasted enery, etc. Yet your original post was that all this energy was kicking the tar out of you.

You had a simple question and got the simple reply (use less powder).

In modern guns, I can shoot up to a .375 H&H fairly comfortably. After that, it begins to hurt. Can I shoot a .458 Mag? Yes. Can I shoot a .470 NE? Yes.

Does it hurt? Damn skippy! But if I have to use those calibers for the game I'm hunting, that's just the way it is. I don't complain about it and then complain when folks tell me to downgrade to a .338 or .375 Mag. that will get the job done without hurting.

The other thing that we haven't brought up is that the TN-style rifles weren't made in large calibers, so that buttplate is not designed to be comfotable with that kind of charge.

Just my 2 cents.

Mario

[Sir Michael]

After following this thread I keep going back to this thread.

http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.org/forum/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=9689

80 grs of ffg and a .590 ball.

That's all I've got to say on the matter.
 

[tg]

I sense a certain lack of acceptance or understanding of the traditional ways of hunting with ML's i don't know what more antone can sat to open the door, if one can leave everything one has ever learned about shooting a deer, where/how to shoot a deer and start over with a fresh open mind with no opinions on how to hunt, then add all that has been offered and trust it and use it one will regularly take deer with a .50 or .54 I am not leaving out the smaller bores as not efficient but want to choose an unarguable place to start,open iron sights, prb, equall a set distance for each individual work within this and trust the gear and things will go well any problems in the past of loosing or crippling deer are the result of doing something different than what it being suggested here, and as said we all loose one sometime, when a great number of hunters make regular kills and a very small number of others using the same gear have problems it is not the gear, it is the execution of the process from start to finish.