Sadistic buttstock is killing me!!

[tg]

I think that when folks talk of pure lead it is in reference to as pure as  is available, like from soft roof flashings and other easy to find sources, none of this lead will flatten out completely when it hits a deer, some have shown some that did not penetrate thru and had some expansion, most go clear through the animal, as the most prefered shot is to avoid muscle and bone and take ouit the vital organs.

[Uncle Russ]

I think you right on tg! :lol:

Uncle Russ...

[tg]

"Sorry I got so long winded....but some things seem to need a bit more 'splaining...if ya know what I mean. "

   No 'pology needed Russ, ya done 'splained it 'bout as good as it could be 'splained.

[cb]

FWIW - http://www.rotometals.com sells 99+% pure lead, various bullet casting alloys, as well as antimony and tin if you'd like to brew up your own.
If you purchase $99.00 + for most items shipping is free......

[mark davidson]

The Hornady round balls I have been shooting flatten out like pancakes. I have only had about three in 20 come out of a deer. When I find them the ball is flat and big around as a quarter or more. I have some linotype and a bunch of Hornady lead balls. I wonder if I were to mix the Hornady balls and linotype about half and half, how do you think the new balls would perform? I think they would expand a little but be much harder and likely crush bone and still exit.  Any of you got any experience with a similar mix??

[Uncle Russ]

The Hornady round balls I have been shooting flatten out like pancakes. I have only had about three in 20 come out of a deer. When I find them the ball is flat and big around as a quarter or more. I have some linotype and a bunch of Hornady lead balls. I wonder if I were to mix the Hornady balls and linotype about half and half, how do you think the new balls would perform? I think they would expand a little but be much harder and likely crush bone and still exit.  Any of you got any experience with a similar mix??

Mark, There is not enough room on this forum to get into all the details of alloys in casting, but suffice to say....The short answer is because barrels aren't perfect.  
The long answer is because cast bullet obturation (or bump-up) is a good thing.  
Obturation is the plastic like deformation of the bullet alloy as a result of the pressure applied to the base, (or bottom)  by the burning powder.....the resistance to movement of a body at rest.

By making the bullet soft enough that it can deform slightly upon firing, it does a better job of sealing the gases off behind it and minimizing blow-by and the leading that results from it.

Antimony and arsenic are the products of choice when it comes to hardening....but now we are talking about taking a hardness beyond a BHN of 20+

Trust me on this wheel weight thing. Metallurgist all agree that ww are "most likely" the best choice because of malleability, bump-up qualities, and availability.

We all have a tendency to "over engineer" about anything associated with shooting, especially casting, or running round ball.


Uncle Russ...

[mark davidson]

I can get some wheel weights I think. Even pure linotype will obturate slightly with enough pressure in centerfire guns. I think pure lino will be too hard for MLer application but I bet a little of it mixed in will harden up soft lead and promote better penetration and less radical deformation in deer size game. I have already seen the down side of "too soft". I am not sure there is a down side of "too hard" as long as it is accurate and not brittle. Consider this: even if a .62 cal. ball does not expand at all, it comes out of the barrel bigger around than a typical .30-06 projectile will be after radical expansion! I see overexpansion as a far greater ill than underexpansion. That's just my opinion. I have killed lots of deer with pure linotype pistol bullets that did not expand at all most of the time. They crushed bone and came out and made for clear and short blood trails.  I bet a big ole round ball that stays pretty much together would do even better. Just thinking out loud. :-)

[R.M.]

Man, you got one bad case of Magnumitus.  
As far as a Lino mix, it can be whatever you want I guess. I have some lino that the tin must be depleted because it only goes to 12 air-cooled. It is lino because it's still in the print form, not ingots.
You'll just have to decide what hardness you want, then experiment until you get there.

[mark davidson]

RM, Yes, I have got magnumitis. :-) Unapologetically!!! I like big guns. I like big knives. I like a big truck; I'm 6'3" and I can't stand a little vehicle. In guns I like one that will do the job with authority and not be on the edge of effective. You can do anything with a big knife that you can do with a little one but you darn sure cannot do anything with a little one that you can do with a big one. Same thing seems to hold true for guns. RM, I do not know about you but lots of folks shoot a lot of paper and not many critters. For paper and just pure fun a smaller gun with a lot less powder is better, more forgiving, and easier to shoot well.  For anchoring deer on the spot or dropping an elk or slamming a big ole hog I much prefer big bore, heavy projectiles, and plenty of velocity. If that diagnoses me with magnumitis, then I guess I have a terminal case of it. I'm a little tired of hearing how great the smaller calibers are. They just did not do that well for me. Three exits in 20 deer shot, long blood trails with very little blood, four losses......sirs, you can have the little ball guns with mouse charges!  Make mine a big bore. (magnum if it makes you feel better to call it that.)  :-)

[Gordon H.Kemp]

Mark theres nothing wrong in having enough gun to do the job propperly in the hunting field, and that is a personal thing. But it's also all right for others to have their idea of what constitutes big enough. and as you said , punching paper takes a lot less powder and gun than may be needed in the field. Keep on enjoying your big bores its what makes you feel good that counts.

[mark davidson]

Gordon,  I for sure did not mean any disrespect to anyone here or anywhere else with what I said about smaller calibers. I know better hunters and better shots get closer than I do and shoot deer in a different place than I prefer. I know full well that smaller will do fine cause I killed several deer with a .50 cal Hawken before I got this custom bug and big bore magnumitis.  I just like the authority, noise, kick, and thump on the target of the .62. I am afraid to shoot a .72 for fear that I will LIKE it ! :-)  Different hunting terrain and conditions and circumstances call for different types of guns. To me the .62 is kinda in the middle between small to medium and medium to really big. .69 and .72 are BIG. Anything beyond that is HUGE!! I just do not see the .62 as "magnum" yet. I guess I am just inexperienced as yet but I chose the .62 cause it seemed like a good compromise caliber. The roughly 350 grain ball is considerably heavier than the 230 grain .54 I had experience with and yet is far lighter and hopefully flatter shooting than the sho-nuff big 500 and 600+grain stuff.  As far as "feel good" is concerned, I must admit that there is something INSPIRING about looking at that big ole hole in the end when I go to the woods. :-)

[Bigsmoke]

Mark,
I know what you mean, I consider my .62 my plinking gun.  The bigger bores are for the serious work.  
Pretty impressive to see a 1,800 pound bison knocked completely off its feet and rolled onto its back with a 100 yard shot from the ol' .72.  Friend of mine shot an elk from about 50 yards with his .72 and he said it just literally picked it up off all 4 feet and threw it sideways.  
Once again, my analogy:  You can get from home to the grocery store just as well in a Yugo as you can in a Corvette - but the Yugo is a lot less fun.

[mark davidson]

Men, What an interesting discussion! Bigsmoke, I like the car analogy. I can fold my long legs up and put them in a ford Ranger but I do enjoy my F250 much better! I can skin a deer with a pocket knife and have many times but I prefer my big Randall model 18! I would hate to have to cut a big tentpole or make a brush shelter for the night with the pocketknife but the Randal will handle either task.

Wyo, I like your information about hardness. The first question my hunting partner and I asked when we got into this BP thing was, Why is nobody using hard bullets?  Evidently they are; lots of folks are it seems.  Big frontal area (meplat) is what makes big bore handguns effective.  Would that not also be true with MLers.  It seems to me that a BIG frontal area (i.e. caliber) ball that is ALSO plenty hard would be the ultimate combination for shooting critters.  Wyo, Also, a great big WOW! from me on 140 grains of 3F!!  That is not a trivial charge! In fact it seems to be awfuly close to the 180grain 2F load that I have been getting ribbed about here for a day or too. :-) I bet that power factor level will cure my ills on skinny whitetail deer!!! :-)

[mark davidson]

Steve, Great post!  You have a wealth of experience that most including me cannot fathom!  I used to average just over 40K rounds of ammo per year when I was shooting competitively but I NEVER came close to burning out that many barrels!!
   Now, Seriously I hope my above post did not imply that I was advocating the use of LBT bullets in a MLer. That is for sure not my intent. I have actually "converted" or "bought in" to this traditional MLer thing pretty deep. I have spent well over three grand in two years on custom guns which are flintlock and round ball only so I have no interest in shooting LBTs. I just meant to note that seemingly what a big flat meplat will do for a pistol bullet performance on game, a big diameter ball should accomplish with a MLer. A ball that is both big and pretty hard should possess massive potential for wound canal and should also exit reliably for the true best of both worlds. I guess I will just have to fire up the melting pot and then slam some critters next year to see how my experiment goes. Hunting like life is a journey.

[Bigsmoke]

Mark,
Even Forsythe appreciated a hardened ball in his 14 bore double rifles.  In his book, The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles, he mentioned alloying and hardening them with mercury.  It is my thought that he had one of his native porters/trackers/whatever do the bullet casting for him.  
That is one thing that I don't know if I would advocate doing.
I do know that a .715 pure lead round ball will pass completely through a bison neck.