KILTS IN THE FUR TRADE

[Puffer]

Were kilts worn by those in the fur trade = YES !

As many know, I wear a kilt. Am I PC incorrect ?? NO WAY. ( although my interp. is open to

As an example, According to " Washington Irving's " ASTORIA", the Scots that were a part of the "sea segment" wore them in "Hawaii" Obviously They they had them @ the Astoria Post.
Plus, here in the PNW, some Posts had "Pipers & so did "Gov. Simpson" Were they "Kilted"??  ( most likely ) Also the"HBC Beaver Club" indicates the wearing"

Puffer

[Trois Castors]

Puffer,two Voyageur reenactor friends of mine(McGregor&McCleod)wore plain red kilts canoeing or in camp(rendezvous).These were not their dress "tartan" as both of them had them too.IIRC it was more like "workwear",maybe?.......have you ever heard of such a thing?

[Puffer]

Puffer,two Voyageur reenactor friends of mine(McGregor&McCleod)wore plain red kilts canoeing or in camp(rendezvous).These were not their dress "tartan" as both of them had them too.IIRC it was more like "workwear",maybe?.......have you ever heard of such a thing?

A work kilt go for it  ( a good Kilt = $$$$ )

Puffer

[Trois Castors]

 ( a good Kilt = $$$$ )

Yeah!......at $100.00/yd. just for the material

[Loyalist Dave]

I think there is some misunderstanding.  IF you take an early loom, and you make a plaid, you need 8-9 yards for you have to cut the cloth in half, and seam it, so the actual garment when finished is 4-4.5 yards.  A "kilt" has the folds sewn in, while a plaid has pleats folded when belted.  It functions as a wrap in cold weather and a blanket at night.  The plaid probably doesn't go back farther than the 1600's.  A "great kilt" is a sewn plaid, keeping the additional fabric of its earlier ancestor, while the smaller kilt was much more convenient, and came about as the need for the utilitarian uses of the plaid had gone away.  You might try a plaid instead of a kilt.  

As for Tartans, they weren't "codified" until the 19th century, but they existed much earlier.  The "set" or the weaving pattern of the width of the stripes and the stripe frequency were more important at first, probably due to the lack of a large amount of diversity in available colors.     The Black Watch tartan for example is from the Campbell set..., using different colors than the Campbell family tartan.  The big question is how factioned were the sets prior to the 19th century?

LD

[Puffer]

LD, I would ?? some of your observations.



Puffer

[Puffer]

LD, I would ?? some of your observations.

NOTE, I am NOT an expert. ( I am somewhat familiar with the Kilt, Both as a owner/wearer, "advise" from others who, IMO are. ( Historians, Top end makers etc  + I was an "adviser" on a Major Kilt forum & now am a MOD on a "Scots forum"
But NOTE the below is my "opinion & is offered ONLY as "food for thought"

1. The "term "plaid" - although  it is sometimes used for a kilt, now days, it most often used to refer to the use of the what was "left over after creating a  philabeg  ( some "modern names Fly plaid ( a Dress adaptation ), a Pipers Plaid, & a Lairds/Day plaid ( as in my adapt pic.)
2. The "great Kilt" was not "sewn " originally, nor should be now. ( although some mfg.s offer to sew the pleats/folds for the convenience of donning. ( think a big blanket used as attire & "belted/folded for "convenience")
3. It appears that the "original"Féileadh Mòr used material that was about 50" wide & 48" ++ long.
4. The philabeg - You are correct that this "Kilt" was the result to have a more Unitarian kilt.
a. Initially, simply cutting off the top part of the Féileadh Mòr
b. Later taking the wider material, & 1/2ing it.& sewing the  results together.
c. It  appears the "early one wear not "pleated". The "concept" of "sewn pleats" seem to appear in the late Georgian/early Victorian period (??)
d. A "proper" Kilt ( either Féileadh Mòr or  philabeg  is ever "hemmed"

As I said, just my "thoughts" The bottom Line = IMO, GET a Kilt, Wear & enjoy. DO NOT SWEAT the SMALL CRAP.

BTW, unless you wish to portray the earlier dates, a Féileadh Mòris
 Plus although I do not own, I have worn & they are, IMHO a Pain in the rear to put on & move in.
   

The "Clan Tartan"

Prior to 1746 there was no such thing per say.
A. the"clans" wore what was woven in area or they liked ( many examples ( art) that show a "Chief" wearing one & his siblings wearing others" Also note in inner clan warfare, it was not the "tartan that ID'd but the "foliage"/ribbon in the Tam.

In 1745, the "wearing of the "Tartan was BANNED. In 1782 it was lifted & because of this & the Brit. Royalty ect, the Attire became "popular ( starting with George IV) & the the tartans started to become "codified" by both Scots weavers & English.

Puffer

[Puffer]

 ( a good Kilt = $$$$ )

Yeah!......at $100.00/yd. just for the material

You be correct BUT it depends on a LOT of factors. ( weaver, rarity of tartan etc)

I own 12 8 yd. Wool kilts ( all new  Mod, period, civilian, made to order ( MoDs never pre worn) The most I have paid was $400.00 ( incl. 3 "custom & a "rare MoD") YES $$ but ...
Also, There are some "synthetics out there, a that are good & less $$$ ( I own 4 )
BTW, I acquired mine over a period of time & being patient + advice.

If You, or ANY TMA member needs Help, contact me, I will do my Da^nst tto assist.

Pufffer

[Loyalist Dave]

First, I wasn't busting your chops.

The Breacan an Fhéilidh was the "belted plaid", not a "kilt" as we understand the term, and the Féileadh Mòr is the "great plaid".  The terms fèileadh beag, filibeg, or philabeg refer to the "small kilt, or walking kilt, and are essentually the lower half of the great plaid or belted plaid.  

The "modern" kilt, the philabeg with the pleats sewn in existed as early as 1792, and an original example is held by the Scottish Clans Authority.  This became very popular, and was the style adopted by the British army unto this day.  So 20 plus years prior to the Western fur trade, sometimes called the American Era.  

As I pointed out, the "tartan" was not codified prior to 1746, but the "set" was associated with certain families...., otherwise why outlaw the "tartan" at all?  Note that the garment was not outlawed, but the tartan was.  How does one outlaw what does not exits..., hence it must therefor have existed as some basis for identification as an item of rebellion.  No   ?  The Campbells were very pro-brittain, and they got the "nod" (and the cash) to make the plaids for the Blackwatch, though they used different colors than in their own plaids.

LD

[Puffer]

First, I wasn't busting your chops.

The Breacan an Fhéilidh was the "belted plaid", not a "kilt" as we understand the term, and the Féileadh Mòr is the "great plaid".  The terms fèileadh beag, filibeg, or philabeg refer to the "small kilt, or walking kilt, and are essentually the lower half of the great plaid or belted plaid.  

The "modern" kilt, the philabeg with the pleats sewn in existed as early as 1792, and an original example is held by the Scottish Clans Authority.  This became very popular, and was the style adopted by the British army unto this day.  So 20 plus years prior to the Western fur trade, sometimes called the American Era.  

As I pointed out, the "tartan" was not codified prior to 1746, but the "set" was associated with certain families...., otherwise why outlaw the "tartan" at all?  Note that the garment was not outlawed, but the tartan was.  How does one outlaw what does not exits..., hence it must therefor have existed as some basis for identification as an item of rebellion.  No   ?  The Campbells were very pro-brittain, and they got the "nod" (and the cash) to make the plaids for the Blackwatch, though they used different colors than in their own plaids.

LD

LD, #1 I took NO OFFENSE @ your comments. & if my reply, seemed to be an "attack" it was NOT. My response was simply to "stir the Pot."
As I mentioned, over the years, I have "observed" a fair amount of discussion on the subjects we broached. These oft time get VERY interesting. ( & sad to say contentious )
Personally, I take the "position, that although, we have "SOME" info. -  Actual kilts - philabeg  ( very few) some documentation,( paintings are iffy), there is a LOT of latitude.
Similar to "what attire a "long hunters" wore etc.

When I had my "period" kilt  !800 -1812 ) made, the man who made it ( an accredited Historian ) presented me with a # of existing examples. They ranged from No pleats, folds. Sewn pleats ( Box,knife, box, Kingussie Pleated to ....)
The one I choose was a 5 yd. "box pleat" with button closures. ( yes it exists in a museum.) Is it PC = YES. ( except the Tartan ) Is it the "only PC" = ABSOLUTELY NOT.  The "only thing is that they seem to have had a "high waist. All else is "open".

As to,  "outlawing, IMHO, YES it was the "tartan" not the garment. But IMHO it was not the specific "clan tartan" the Tartan in general.

As to the "Black Watch" - Here is a "discussion that is interesting" - http://www.sconemac.com/bwatch.html

2 Personal notes
1. At this time, my Ancestors ( Black Douglas ) being both "anti crown & were Border Reivers & these  ( the "Watch")were the "cops". ( as were all other "watch units raised by the "Marsh Wardens")
As to attire, some say initially some say Féileadh Mòr, others an "early form of the  philabeg" or many, when mounted, "pants"

As to the influence of the " Campbell s" = YEP ( the Grants,Fraser, Monroe etc. were also "involved".

Again, wearing a kilt in the "Americas" is well documented, but what, IMO = In the FUR TRADE = YES, & again, what + ?

IMO, You can "attempt" to be PC ( as best you can, but remember DO NOT "thump others heads" if disagree on "your take"

GO FORTH, WEAR THE KILT

Puffer

[Riley/MN]

Yeah but, what do you wear under it?

[Puffer]

Yeah but, what do you wear under it?

 :rotf  

But "seriously" I do not go "regimental"
I wear at least "boxers" a "slip," or "bike shorts"
1. My wool kilts cost "mutcho" $$$ to clean. ( think  ....)
2. Wool irradiates " my "privates"
3. Modesty
4.  At My age,Being "motcho" is not my thing  

Just a side note, shirts, until recently  were long ( thigh length so ....

Puffer

[Riley/MN]

When I got my kilt it came with a card with tips on wearing and caring for... One of the tips was "Be prepared for questions about your underwear."

So I just had to ask....

[Kermit]

Some of my responses to "What is worn beneath a kilt?"

    *My shoes and socks.
    *Nothing is worn, everything is in perfect working order.
    *A wee set of pipes.
    *It's the smallest airport in the world.....2 hangars and a night fighter.
    *How badly do you want to know?
    *What God graced me with.
    *Gi’e me your hand lassie, I’m a mon o’ few words.

For the visual among you, see here:
http://old-plod-of-plympton.blogspot.co ... -kilt.html

When younger, I was an active Scottish country dancer, and we (the lads) all wore black Speedos there.


Properly, you can wear whatever you please, unless in an active highland regiment, in which case if you wear anything there, I'm told, you are out of uniform, lad. An exception, I understand, is the pipe major, because of the need for some modesty given his high-stepping antics at parade. Undergarments may also be worn while dancing or competing in highland games.

BTW, the kilt pin, I'm given to understand, is a Victorian addition. The tale goes that Queen Victoria was reviewing troops, and as a highland regiment passed by, a bit of a breeze blew up, exposing some of the Scots' equipment. Her sensibilities offended, she declared that a pin was to be added to the apron of their kilts. The vain Scots, proud of the hang of their garments, couldn't bear messing with their accustomed appearance. In compliance with royal orders, the pins were duly added to the apron, but not to pin down that wonderful flowing aspect of the kilt. It is to this day, only a decoration, serving no other function. I often eschew a kilt pin, especially in day attire.

I have two modern kilts (both "ancient" colors, Fraser, hunting and dress), and wear them with fair frequency. I think they ran me around $400 each, custom tailored in Edinburgh about 20-25 years ago. But in my case, they are not 'voo duds. I question the style, the setts, and the dyes used to produce them--not HC. Just not my personal interest. I'm a quarter Scots, and a quarter Swiss, and eighth each Dane and Swede. The rest is general mongrel New Englander, primarily English, wherefrom my surname cometh. I figure I can pretty much pick any persona orientation and it fits. I've just never been interested in portraying an 18th century Scot, and especially not a Highland regiment Scot. Besses don't fit me.

Many Americans--especially the young, for some reason, wear their kilts too long. In Scotland I've been told that the center of the kneecap is the max, and if you've got a bit of pride in your legs, they can be a couple of inches above the kneecap. Mine are at the top of the 'cap. Most also wear them too low on the waist. They should be just below the ribcage. Kilts can feel funny to those used to trousers riding at the hips.

If you dig it though, read a bit, ask some questions, and go for it. I just ask that you do a better job than those SCA wobs who show up in Utilikilts and think they are something other than pure fiction. Good god, I once saw one at a rondy!

[Puffer]

If you dig it though, read a bit, ask some questions, and go for it.

 

Plus I like your "take on the "modern wearing of the kilt"

Puffer