The myth of the Hawken Rifle....

[Ohio Joe]

No...every Mountain Man didn't have a Hawken but that's not to say that after they had seen and hefted one.......a Hawken was on their 'wish list'!!

True, very true....ya don't make a name for yourself like Sam Hawken did without doing something right.
I've never read they were outstandingly accurate in anyway, what with that 1:48 twist being due to the fact that particular rifling machine was the only one available at the time, I have never read it shot harder, truer, or farther, so it very well could have been in "the feel", all in the "hefting"...but don't forget what it did for the eye.
It was just downright pleasing to look at....it stirred those inner demons, creating excitement.

Whatever the reason for the Hawken popularity during that special era in time, I am very thankful the likeness of a very similar rifle survives to this day.
Ya simply gotta love the story of the Hawken Rifle, it has changed many of our lives in todays modern world when it comes to hobby / lifestyle we all enjoy immensely, and I personally see that as a good thing.

Uncle Russ.....

I have a book around here somewhere that I recall seeing/reading in it that there was a penetration test into oak from 200 yards with a Hawken Rifle, and I'm not sure if it was a civilian test or Army test from the late 1840's to maybe in the 1860's. I'll have to find that book and see exactly what that was. I also kind'a recall that there was (or was going to be) a "Hawken" Rifle Company formed up during the Mexican/American War (1848). Whether this ever took place or not, I don't know? It could be another myth, or there could be some substance to the story?

[Loyalist Dave]

.., when beginning to outfit himself for life in the mountains stops by the Hawken shop to replace his squirrel gun with a “regular mountain rifle.”

I wonder how much of a "myth" was the Hawken in the 19th century, compared to what it is today, perhaps getting a huge boost, starting in 1972?

In Jeremiah Johnson (Warner Brothers Dec. 1972), Johnson in his voice-over narration, buy's a "thirty caliber" rifle, because it was all that he could find, and also remarks, "but it was all Hawken".  Now those of us who know muzzleloaders know IF the screenwriter really knew something about muzzleloaders, it probably would be a .32 or .36, and even so, would be woefully underpowered for the places he was going.  Later in the film, Johnson finds the late, "Hatchet Jack", and obtains a much larger caliber Hawken.  This movie was based on two novels, and these may have echoed in the 20th century, the novel of the 19th century that was a well known best-seller. 

LD

[Uncle Russ]

In the movie, I have always though he was referring to the Number of balls to the pound of weight.
And you're right, if the screenwriter knew maybe it should have been pointed out.

Basically it looks like:
 BTTP        Caliber in Decimal
30             .533
32             .530 or .526
34             .519
36             .506

Uncle Russ...

[Ohio Joe]

I don't think the writers of JJ had a real good clue on the firearms of the period, caliber and BTTP.

Remember, Johnson can't seem to even kill an animal with his .30 Hawken... (30 BTTP = .533), yet after he gets Hatchet Jack's rifle "a fifty caliber Hawken" (36 BTTP = .506), he's killing big game, including a grizzly bear in the cabin.

I bet they also never figured this would spur debate since the first showing of this movie. 

[amm1851]

I bet Robert Redford never imagined how many people would have their interest in muzzleloading rifles at least partly stimulated by that movie. In spite of its inaccuracies, it is a fun movie to watch. 

[Uncle Russ]

I bet Robert Redford never imagined how many people would have their interest in muzzleloading rifles at least partly stimulated by that movie. In spite of its inaccuracies, it is a fun movie to watch. 

You betcha! 
That movie turned a lot of people to the dark side.
There were other movies along the way, but in 1972, or  thereabouts, the interest was showing up in many places where there had been none before.
That movie ignited a spark along with a lot of debate that simply refuses to go away.
And, IMHO, that can all be seen as good thing.

Uncle Russ..

[Winter Hawk]

In the April & May Muzzle Blasts there was a two part article about someone who was in the mountains and (I believe) New Mexico and his Hawken.  Unfortunately I passed those editions on to a friend so can't give any particulars.  It was rebuilt by Hawken in later years is all I remember of it (curses on failing old-age memory!).  Maybe someone else can find it and see what can be added to this conversation.

Years ago I was in a museum in Portland, Oregon which was mainly about the trek West to the Willamette Valley.  Several of the rifles on display looked very similar to the CVA mountain Rifle, IIRC.  Again, this was about 30 years ago and time seems to have blurred some of what I remember (see comment above).

~WH~

[Bigsmoke]

As I recall, the first big resurgence of all things muzzleloading was in 1965, with the centennial of the Civil War. 
Then of course, the Jeremiah Johnson movie with what's his name.
Along about that time, I started selling stuff at rendezvous and shoots.
By 1976, we were doing pretty good and then the Buy-Some-Tennial hit and things really went wild.
I would say that the centennial and the bicentennial were the big growth spurts, the movie was secondary.
Other movies like LOTM, the Patriot, etc. spurred growth, but the anniversaries were the things that really caused excitement.
Just my opinion, of course.
John

[amm1851]

Any fans of the Hawken rifle owes it to themselves to visit the Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody, Wyoming. It is actually five museums in one complex, and the firearms portion is enough to satisfy gun enthusiasts of any era. When I was there, they had a wall of Hawken rifles right near the entrance, and I believe I spent a good 30 minutes just staring at them. The rest of the firearm museum is equally impressive, with everything from the earliest types of gun to the latest whiz bang. It also features an impressive collection of western art, a natural history museum and the Buffalo Bill portion. Well worth the trip for any student of western history. 

[Ohio Joe]

Any fans of the Hawken rifle owes it to themselves to visit the Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody, Wyoming. It is actually five museums in one complex, and the firearms portion is enough to satisfy gun enthusiasts of any era. When I was there, they had a wall of Hawken rifles right near the entrance, and I believe I spent a good 30 minutes just staring at them. The rest of the firearm museum is equally impressive, with everything from the earliest types of gun to the latest whiz bang. It also features an impressive collection of western art, a natural history museum and the Buffalo Bill portion. Well worth the trip for any student of western history. 

Been there, loved it, hope to go back someday. 

It's a shame that the Lewis & Clark Expedition didn't have quite the impact as other anniversary events. If it had, who knows, we might be talking the Harpers Ferry 1803 right now? If I recall this correctly, didn't one of the Hawken's have a hand in making these rifles before they moved to St. Louis? I believe there was some talk of the half stock Hawken rifle possibly being based on that rifle, only with a percussion lock rather then a flintlock.

[Loyalist Dave]

I bet Robert Redford never imagined how many people would have their interest in muzzleloading rifles at least partly stimulated by that movie. In spite of its inaccuracies, it is a fun movie to watch. 

My first ML was a Thompson Center .50 caliber "Hawken".  OH and Paints-His-Shirt-Red is clearly seen in one scene as having a rifle/fusil double gun..., not bad at all.   

Oh I give a break to '70's and earlier black powder films, and TV shows like Daniel Boone.     I don't give an inch to stuff made after 2000 that's craptastic, because it's so easy for the writers to get it right, and for the prop master and costumer  to get it right and to find the right stuff too.  Case in point, The Sons of Liberty.  Bad costumes, poor direction, bad props, weak script. 

LD 

[Winter Hawk]

Found the May issue of Muzzle Blasts still here.  The articles are about the "Medina Hawken" bought by Mariano Medina when he was a young man, and later rebuilt by the Hawken shop.  Article one is a history of the rifle (and Medina) while article two is about recreating the rifle.

~WH~

[Ohio Joe]

Found the May issue of Muzzle Blasts still here.  The articles are about the "Medina Hawken" bought by Mariano Medina when he was a young man, and later rebuilt by the Hawken shop.  Article one is a history of the rifle (and Medina) while article two is about recreating the rifle.

~WH~

I saw that WH, and meant to get back to reading it. Like so many things, I have good intentions and then I forget... I'll read it after my grandson's ball game tonight (if I remember...) 

[Winter Hawk]

Hope his team (and he himself) does well tonight!   

~WH~

[Uncle Russ]

I don't think the writers of JJ had a real good clue on the firearms of the period, caliber and BTTP.

Remember, Johnson can't seem to even kill an animal with his .30 Hawken... (30 BTTP = .533), yet after he gets Hatchet Jack's rifle "a fifty caliber Hawken" (36 BTTP = .506), he's killing big game, including a grizzly bear in the cabin.

I bet they also never figured this would spur debate since the first showing of this movie. 

Joe, think about it...36 is bigger than 30..... right? 

Many of us are just alike, in a sense.
It's difficult to really enjoy a movie when you're a gun nut and things are all wrong, it kinda wipes out what would've / could've been a pretty good movie....we do my best to ignore it, but it just bugs us.

Uncle Russ...