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Author Topic: Starting my first horn  (Read 6571 times)

Online Two Steps

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Re: Starting my first horn
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2020, 07:26:53 AM »
Wow! That is some darn good looking scrim!  :applaud
Two Steps/Al Bateman
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Online KDubs

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Re: Starting my first horn
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2020, 09:02:55 AM »
again thank you for the kind words, very encouraging.
 
 I have to pick up a few sizes of rasps and I will look for a hole saw for the spout, like that idea.
 
 I have a heat gun and a hot plate /pot in case i go the oil route. i want to do some flat horns, I'll make a press for that. ( maybe just my vice)
 
 Any other tools or gadgets that i might need to consider?  I am thinking about some relief or chip type carving in the future, anyone here do that sorta stuff.

added bonus, the cut off tip from this horn just happens to hold 75gr of Ffg,  exactly what my ol hawken likes.
 
kevin

 
 
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Online RobD

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Re: Starting my first horn
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2020, 09:12:59 AM »
Perhaps some small gouges for engrailing.


Online Bigsmoke

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Re: Starting my first horn
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2020, 11:28:16 AM »
As of the last time I saw it, the Pass Around Box had a set of basic carving tools. 
The last I heard, the box was headed north to Alaska, so if you were to sign up for it now, it could get to you on its way back to the Lower 48.
No guarantees that the tools are still in the box, but it is kind of fun to participate.
If you want to get in on it, message me your mailing information and I will pass the word to send it to you next.
Obligations on getting it?  None.  Just replace the number of items you take with the same quantity of items and send it on to the next person.  Easy, peasy.
As far as tool acquisition goes, I bought a ton of stuff from CdA Power Tool on Hwy 95, just a few blocks north of Appleway.  Second choice is Lowe's on Appleway, west of Hwy 95.
Enjoy !!!

John (Bigsmoke)
Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest Up to God.

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Online BEAVERMAN

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Re: Starting my first horn
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2020, 03:49:41 PM »
Kevin, been away the last couple days, looking good, especially that hand cut and fit base plug, not an easy thing to do, in the pic that plug looks like it was turned on a lathe! well done my friend!
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Online KDubs

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Re: Starting my first horn
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2020, 06:50:26 PM »
 [ Invalid Attachment ]
Thanks again everyone.
 Swung by wood crafters today.  Couldn't pry my wallet open for a 45$ 1/8" gouge. Man..
 Some of this work I've done with a dremel.  Some with hand tools.
 I'd like to know what some of you kind folks use as far as power tools ( If any) for horn building. Ie belt Sanders , dremel etc. 
 I find with power tools I need to be way more attentive.
 Kevin
 
 
 
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Re: Starting my first horn
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2020, 09:06:08 PM »
I rarely use a dremel, if I do it's to sand out the inside diameter of the base of the horn, I use a table mounted belt sander for truing the base of the horn after I have cut it with a band saw, a Jet midi wood lathe for turning base plugs and applied tips and spout plugs, I use a #49 Nicholson rasp as it cuts the horn rather than tears it,  a series of other files and needle files as needed, a spoke shave will make quick work of shaving off material on the throat, after filing I use stanley utility knife blades for scraping before sanding, I luckily have quite a collection of bench and carving chisels in various sizes and shapes for both gun and horn building, you may want to check out woodcarvers supply here,  https://www.woodcarverssupply.com/ for chisels, i have a set of German made Lamp Brand which have never failed me along with an assortment  Pfiel chisels, one thing that is a big help is a LED flashlight with a flexible wand head to look at the layers of horn from the inside out ( it will help in not filing through the throat) and 1&1/4 to  1&1/2 piece of dowel wrapped with some leather and chucked up in a bench vise then the horn is jammed on the leather will hold very well when filing and scraping, a sand bag or bean bag ( I use barley) the bag is full but not jammed tight  6" wide and 10 to 12" long will aid for a bed for the horn while sitting doing fine work and doing scrim, just some tips of the things I use, your mileage may vary!
Jim Smith
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Online KDubs

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Re: Starting my first horn
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2020, 09:46:00 PM »
Well I seem to have a few chisels , files, scrapers and such on hand from building selfbows.
  Thinking about a small belt sander, wanted one for awhile anyway .
 I'm really enjoying this, might be something I'm really OK at. Ha.
  Would it be recommended to epoxy the spout to the horn or better to just use the three tiny set screws.
 Kevin
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Online Bigsmoke

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Re: Starting my first horn
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2020, 10:47:27 PM »
Well, let's see, before I dismantled my shop, walking around it I had a floor mounted band saw, probably used a 1/4 x 94" blade on it the most;  Then a floor mounted drill press with a 5/8" chuck;  next thing was a 12" disc sander with a 60 grit  disc on it;  then turn the corner and there was a JET wood lathe, no idea what the model was, but it had electronic speed control and forward and reverse;  then turn the corner again and there was my flapper sander, using a Wolfen head 16 brush model, I think I used 220 grit loadings;  next was a bench with a heavy duty vise mounted in one corner and a 2" 48" belt sander and on the other side was a motor with a chain saw sharpener on one end of the shaft and a polishing wheel on the other.  It was a 3450 RPM motor which was too fast, should have been 1750 RPM instead, but that's how it was.  Turn the corner again and that was where my bench mounted router sat.  I used mainly two different bits, one was a straight trim bit with a bearing on top, used for trimming the outer edge of the baseplug to the horn and the other bit was a 1/2" round over.
Originally, I used a Shopsmith for most of the operations, but decided later on that I would prefer to have individual tools to work with.
Please understand that is a lot of tools to make a powder horn, but I didn't just make one powder horn at a time, typically I made a dozen at a time.  When I was in full production, I usually made about that many in a day.  FWIW, I estimate I made about 35,000+ powder horns over a 30 year career.
Oh yeah, there was also a shop vac with a cyclone attached to manage the dust, hot air gun, misc files, a couple of different hammers, etc.
When I switched over to individual tools, I bought a lot of them from Harbor Freight.  They were OK, although I would have preferred getting name brand ones, but they worked.

John (Bigsmoke)
Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest Up to God.

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Online BEAVERMAN

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Re: Starting my first horn
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2020, 01:24:51 AM »
Well I seem to have a few chisels , files, scrapers and such on hand from building selfbows.
  Thinking about a small belt sander, wanted one for awhile anyway .
 I'm really enjoying this, might be something I'm really OK at. Ha.
  Would it be recommended to epoxy the spout to the horn or better to just use the three tiny set screws.
 Kevin

Kevin, if it was me I'd epoxy it with the screws, you want that horn  air & flame tight!
Jim Smith
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Online KDubs

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Re: Starting my first horn
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2020, 08:59:30 AM »
 yes sir beaver, roger that on the water / flame tight sprout.

 wow smoke that was quite the operation, don't think i'll be doing any mass production but my wife thinks i should make items for trade blankets at bow shoots and such.
 not to derail the conversation but did you make horns for a living?  how'd you get into that?

  as much as i would like to do it by hand the OLD ways, my 56 yr old hands are almost unusable the next day after a few hours of hand tools on a horn.
  I'm all set with a band saw, scrapers and such, but i will be getting a bench top sander.
 
 Beaverman, you mention using a dremel to sand the inside of the base.  is that the preferred method for fitting a plug.  I tapered the plug to fit the horn instead, by hand , with a rasp. wonder why my hands hurt?
 kevin
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Online RobD

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Re: Starting my first horn
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2020, 10:01:36 AM »
There are lots of ways to make a most functional powder horn that at least looks decent, too.  I prefer the easiest methods possible, with the least amount of fussing and tooling possible. 

To me, it's all about the butt plug - what it should look like and how it should get accomplished.

Initially, I got Scott and Cathy's book and realized that heating/boiling/whatever to the horn was not something I wanted to mess with, and that it probably wasn't done all that regularly back in the day by the typical farmer, but might have been business-as-usual by members of the hornmakers guild.  So I went my own way and "carved" plugs and butts and used resin glue or epoxy to make things stick.  Along with a good sanding station and a bandsaw, to boot.  I like doing it my way, and that's all that mattered to me.  But scrimming, dang ... man I *tried* ... I need to learn me that fo' sho' !!!     


























Online Bigsmoke

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Re: Starting my first horn
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2020, 11:31:09 AM »

 not to derail the conversation but did you make horns for a living?  how'd you get into that?

 
  I'm all set with a band saw, scrapers and such, but i will be getting a bench top sander.
 

Kevin, To answer your question, Yes, I did make them for a living.  How did I get into that?  Well, it was a hobby that went to seed. :Doh!  Seriously, in 1983, I saw an ad in the classified section of Muzzleblasts that read, "FOR SALE Powder Horn and Shooting Bag business.  Can locate anywhere."  So, I called on that, went down to Colorado, liked what I saw, made an offer on it and on New Years Day, 1984, they pulled up in my driveway.  Mort and Patty spent about a week, maybe a week and a half helping us set up a horn shop in the garage and a leather shop in the basement and then teaching us their techniques.  They brought two Juki sewing machines, an anvil, a small box of tools, a roll of leather (6 halves) and a box of cow horns.  That was it.  By that time, I had bought a Shopsmith and I was ready to go.
In 1992, I bought Earl Cureton's horn business and then I really got busy making powder horns.
The name of the business was October Country, and to this day it is located on Government Way.  In 2005, we sold it and moved down to LaLaLand to assist Ms. Smokes' mother who was having trouble health wise.  When we got down here, I built a shop in the garage and started Powder Horns and More.  I ran that for about 10 years and then sold it to a fellow who is running it from New York.

Enough of that.  A thought on attaching your baseplug.  First, you should have about a 5 degree bevel on you inner pine plug.  When you set it into the base of the horn, it should be about 1/4" to 3/8" proud, much like your photograph shows.  Some people talk about putting the horn in boiling water to soften, but the horn needs to be about 350 degrees to become soft and pliable enough to form.  Never going to happen with water, because the boiling point of water is 212 degrees, Where is that other 138 degrees going to come from?  It ain't.  So, your other two choices are hot oil or a heat gun.  I have tried the hot oil routine a time or two and didn't care for it, so the hot air gun it is.  I stick the nozzle of the gun into the horn and keeping it moving all the time, just go around the inner circumference for one minute.  Except for very thick walled horns, that should be adequate.  Then put the gun down on the bench, set the inner plug into the horn and give it a couple of whacks with a hammer.  For this, I used a hammer with plastic heads.  Pound it in securely and there you go.  Half way there.  Here is where the disc sander comes to play.  Sand any exposed horn off with it.  Also, I used a little machinists square and on the bottom side of the horn  I would check to see if the base was square to the horn.  Functionally, it doesn't matter, but aesthetically it looks a lot better.

OK, school is out for the day.  Have fun, take two aspirin and call if you are still suffering symptoms of horn dustitis.

John (Bigsmoke)
Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest Up to God.

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Online BEAVERMAN

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Re: Starting my first horn
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2020, 01:11:10 PM »
Beaverman, you mention using a dremel to sand the inside of the base.  is that the preferred method for fitting a plug.  I tapered the plug to fit the horn instead, by hand , with a rasp. wonder why my hands hurt?
 kevin


Kevin, not normally but sometimes if your going to turn a base plug on a lathe and you want a smooth transition from horn to plug you may have to remove material from the inside of the horn.
Jim Smith
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Online KDubs

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Re: Starting my first horn
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2020, 07:36:13 PM »
 thanks for the replies,
 john I've been into October country,  nice place.  thanks for the pointers, I'll be putting them to good use.
 
 rob love your work as always, great stuff.
 
kevin
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USAF Medic 1982-1992  Aim High