I hate patent breech plugs - another kit build ...

[Ohio Joe]

Kind 'a the same with me, Hanshi.

I'm not a fan of the patent breech either, but I've not really experienced many issues with it all. It may be because I live in a climate where we really don't have a lot of humidity here in NW Nebraska.

It does seem to me that, many - many - many years ago when I lived in NW Ohio (where the humidity was always high), I did have some trouble with the patent breech, things like hang fires, cap going off but not igniting the charge (that could of been the caps), but out here I've not experience that at all (that I can recall). I do have a .50 caliber Lyman GPR - Flintlock, (and other flintlock rifles) and I can't recall having any problems with ignition out here with them.

Again, I'm kind 'a convinced that the troubles are more related to humidity after some shots in humid area's - but I wouldn't swear to it. 

[Bigsmoke]

I have been shooting rifles with patent breeches for what, maybe 50 years now.  Many Thompson Centers, Lymans, customs, etc.  Percussion rifles and flintlocks.  I have shot in every kind of weather, from hot and dry as Hades, to high humidity (think Friendship, IN), to sub freezing and snow in North Idaho, in the rain and when it was snowing, and have never experienced any troubles with the PB.
I think the main problem is due more to the loose nut behind the butt plate than any other cause.  If you don't wipe out the barrel and pop a couple of caps prior to first loading, you are just asking for mis-fires and hang fires.  And that's just how it is.
John (Bigsmoke)

[RobD]

The problem I have with PBs is that their flues are smaller bores than the big main bore itself.  So when ya stick that big ol'  patched jag down the tube for the first time - don't matter whether it's wet, damp, or dry - yer pushing BP residue into the PB flue. 

Depending on a number of factors with the gun, the load, the shooting climate, that might not be an issue, or maybe it could be a real PITA problem.  Thing is, with a classic flat faced breech plug, it's almost never ever a problem.  So like it or not, those offshore PBs will introduce issues and/or problems that are not present with classic inshore plugs.

I've messed around with different jag modifications to avoid having to use a separate brushed rod for cleaning the PB flue after cleaning the main bore, but no cigar so far.

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[Ohio Joe]

I'd agree there's a whole lot to that Rob.

IMHO (regarding percussion ignition & I know we all have our own idea's about this), anytime a person has to fire a cap to clear out that channel that leads to the main charge after every shot to assure the second load will ignite, this is not a good setup.

I don't disagree that the target shooters go beyond fouling control during competition (heck when living in Ohio, and was a member of Shawnee Long Rifles, I did as well). I knew that my load cycle was going to consist of using two caps with each shot (1 to clear the ignition channel - and one to set off the next charge). Granted, back then - caps were a whole lot cheaper - but now they're quite expensive. But, humidity is not a friend to black powder shooting once that black powder has become "fouling" after your first shot, and following shots.

IMHO, and you have to find what works for you (shot to shot) to control that humidity that does show up in you load chain with those patent breeches.

Just my opinion from what I've experienced. And with the above said, that same type of fouling shows up in patent breech flintlocks. 

[RobD]

I'd agree there's a whole lot to that Rob.

IMHO (regarding percussion ignition & I know we all have our own idea's about this), anytime a person has to fire a cap to clear out that channel that leads to the main charge after every shot to assure the second load will ignite, this is not a good setup.

I don't disagree that the target shooters go beyond fouling control during competition (heck when living in Ohio, and was a member of Shawnee Long Rifles, I did as well). I knew that my load cycle was going to consist of using two caps with each shot (1 to clear the ignition channel - and one to set off the next charge). Granted, back then - caps were a whole lot cheaper - but now they're quite expensive. But, humidity is not a friend to black powder shooting once that black powder has become "fouling" after your first shot, and following shots.

IMHO, and you have to find what works for you (shot to shot) to control that humidity that does show up in you load chain with those patent breeches.

Just my opinion from what I've experienced. And with the above said, that same type of fouling shows up in patent breech flintlocks. 

I think yer spot on, Joe. 

From the limited cap rifles I've owned, worked on, and shot, I think they can be a bit more problematic than flint. 

With flint, the ignition channel is right there and linear direct, from spark to pan to touch hole to chamber powder.  Much easier to clean out, too. 

Cap bolsters and nipples have that dogleg to encounter for the heat of the popped cap to reach the chamber powder.  Also, while nipples are relatively and easy removal, not so easy to do a thorough clean out as well if the snail needs to be removed.  Add in a PB and boy can that be an added hassle!

Between the added need for an additional special part of ignition (caps) and their expense, these are part of the reason why I gravitate towards the flint ignition.

[Bigsmoke]

I am sorry, I just do not understand what your problem is.
As I have outlined above, I have shot in most every conceivable weather condition, from high humidity to dry as a bone, from stifling high temperatures to well below zero and from the east coast to the west coast.  I have shot with factory guns to custom guns, and with Patent breeches to flat breeches.  I never have had ignition problems.  And I am talking percussion guns here, not flinters.
So, what is the secret to this success?  I don't think it is using .22 caliber brushes to clean the breech.  I don't think it is using funny little scrapers to clean the breech.  I don't think it is any of those ideas, because I have never felt the need to use them.  In my life, I have probably shot in excess of my body weight in black powder, and that would be 1,575,000 grains of the stuff.  I think the secret is that I never clean the rifle by just running a wet patch up and down in the barrel.  It seems to me that would just push fouling into the breech.  I always flush the barrel and ignition chamber with Ol' Thunder Bore Solvent by removing the barrel from the stock and immerse the breech into a soup can full of the solvent and flush the barrel by running a patched cleaning jag up and down in the barrel.  I use three patches, typically.  One to clean the barrel, another to dry it out and a third to lubricate the barrel with Just Good Lube.  Fast, easy and economical.  From initial teardown to final re-assembly, it is faster than a person can smoke a cigarette.
Then when it is time to shoot again, I simply run a dry patch down the barrel to wipe out any oil lingering there and pop a cap or two to make sure the ignition passage is clear.  Presto, we are shooting again.  Nothing to it.
I will confess that I have had hangfires on occasion in the past.  But I attribute that to the fact I was testing some big bore rifles with Pyrodex powder.   And the situation cleared up as soon as I switched back to black powder.
But, all this is just my experience.  I cannot speak to what you are doing or the results you are getting. 
(Joe, I have never heard of popping a cap to clear the chamber prior to loading each shot.  Seems excessive to me.)

John (Bigsmoke)

[Ohio Joe]

(Joe, I have never heard of popping a cap to clear the chamber prior to loading each shot.  Seems excessive to me.)

Well, that's what we did back in that high Ohio humidity, and it worked. 

[Hanshi]

I have owned and used at least half a dozen or more guns with patent breeches without any problem from that type of setup; but I still don't like them.  For me it just adds another complexity to a simple device.  Long ago I really never thought much about it.  But now I'm old and grouchy and that likely has something to do with it; plus I have grown more picky.  IMHO a patent breech is a debatable solution in search of a nonexistent problem.

[RobD]

I have owned and used at least half a dozen or more guns with patent breeches without any problem from that type of setup; but I still don't like them.  For me it just adds another complexity to a simple device.  Long ago I really never thought much about it.  But now I'm old and grouchy and that likely has something to do with it; plus I have grown more picky.  IMHO a patent breech is a debatable solution in search of a nonexistent problem.

Aside from definitely having fouling control issues with PBs, I totally agree!      

[Ohio Joe]

Remember, this Nipple Primer came about for some reasons.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/4/1/PRIMER-B

[RobD]

Remember, this Nipple Primer came about for some reasons.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/4/1/PRIMER-B

  - sure takes a buncha "stuff" to make cap guns go "POP!" 

[Ohio Joe]

Remember, this Nipple Primer came about for some reasons.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/4/1/PRIMER-B

  - sure takes a buncha "stuff" to make cap guns go "POP!" 

At times, yes. 

I'll also mention that all caps are not equal to their task. Personally for my cap guns there are only two that I found to be dependable; #1 RWS No. 1075 plus - (the most dependable) & the CCI's were/are good caps for dependable ignition... IMHO all the rest came in 2nd or lower.

And,,, I may catch a bit of guff over this, but I truly believe that a good flintlock Lock, is the most dependable ignition system when it's straight into the rear side of the charge. 

[RobD]

I've never been "into" percussion guns mostly 'cause I'm more into the 18th century era and I appreciate the deadly simplicity of flint lock ignitions.  Basically, all I need is powder, flint, lead, and I'm good to go.  However, I do appreciate the beauty of a fine percussion gun. 

Bottom line to me is that all traditional muzzleloaders, regardless of their ignition system, are works of art in their own way, and I appreciate them all ...

... just let mine be a rock lock, thank you! 

[Nessmuk]

What Rob said!   
Except I   don't  lean so hard towards the flint  side. 

[RobD]

This is fourth RPL05 I've installed on Investarms Hawken style rifles.  There's quite a bit of wood to remove for the L&R RPL05 lock to properly fit into an Investarms stock.  I used Prussian blue brushed on the lock to spot most of the areas that required Dremel use, chisel work, scraping, and abrasive paper.  The last step is to insure that the lock plate fits tight to the barrel, so that there will be no space for ignition BP residue to readily migrate into the innards of the lock mechanism.  This is done by lightly scraping all around the mortise edges to lower the plate in the stock wood, and end up kissing the barrel.

While the supplied DST is adequate, the L&R T5 DST is *SO* much better in every way.  So I ordered one as well.  It will require shortening the the back end and grinding in a step to the front end so that the trigger guard will properly fit.  The T5 offers excellent trigger adjustments whilst the stock Investarms DST offers pretty much no adjustment - it has a firing trigger travel screw that makes no sense since it can't be adjusted ... never could figure out why they even bothered adding in that screw.  Don't get me wrong, the Investarms trigger works fine as is, it's just not all that adjustable and what you see is what you get.  It's worth it for me to spend $60 on the far better trigger.

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