Conicals in slow PRB twist?

[mark davidson]

Gentlemen: I have been away from here for a while but I now have a question for you fellows. I have a .54 cal. flintlock with 42" barrel with I believe 1:72" twist.  Is there any way to get that barrel to shoot conicals well on out to 100 yards or so? Do any of you have a recipe or suggestion for how much powder and what kind of conical to experiment with?  Please spare me for now from the "why not just shoot prb discussion." :-) I really want and need to shoot heavy conicals and I do not want to have to rebarrel my custom flinter to do so. Any guidance will be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Loyalist Dave]

NOPE

ya can't fool the physics, sorry.  That slow a twist will give your conical an attitude in flight that'll cause it to tumble like a football kicked for a field goal.  It's not a question of velocity.

I started as a kid with a CVA caplock in .45.  I still have that rifle.  Tried T/C Maxi Balls and Maxi Hunters.  Made nice keyholes in the paper at 25 feet.  Off the paper at 25 yards.  Later I found out why, while it also shot cloverleaf patterns at 25 yards with a round ball.  The slow twist just isn't enough.  

LD

[R.M.]

Velocity might help a bit, but that twist just isn't enough to get the bullet rotating fast enough to stabilize it. The best you could do would be to use as short and compact (no hollow base) a conical as you can get.

[Flint62Smoothie]

FWIW I once got excellent hunting accuracy (2" groups @ 50-yards) using Buffalo Bullet 'Ball-Ets', which is a SHORT for it's length conical.  I used the 270gr (IIRC) hollow-point out of a 50cal 1-in-66" twist Mowrey rifle.





I hear Ball-Ets may not be made anymore but Midway sells the CVA version.

[mark davidson]

Gentlemen:  Thanks for your replies. I figured as much but I needed some confirmation to my suspiscions. I kinda hoped that there might be some insane amount of powder that would stabilize a conical in my real slow twist and still be within safe pressure limits.  I suppose it is unreasonable to expect any saboted bullet to do any better???  I detest the idea of using a saboted pistol bullet in my precious flinter but I might be willing to play if any of you have a good proven load. (powder/bullet combo)

[jbullard1]

I don't think a sabot will help at all
Wish I had a mold for a 54 maxi/minnie or such I'd cast some and send them to you just for testing

[Fletcher]

Just stick with PRB... They are accurate and powerful enough to take any game or knock over any competition target you are going to run into.

I am waiting to see how Longhunter does on Elephant, Rhino and Cape Buffalo with his PRB guns - but I have high hopes!!!

[Bigsmoke]

It seems the the saboted rounds need a faster twist barrel than a maxi does.  Fuhgedaboutit.

[AxelP]

I was told that in the moderate twist category (1:48 or 56) if you really load stout, and get above 2000 fps, that it might work, but  in a 1:66 you wont be able to get the velocity up high enuff to stablize the conical.

I also was told that those plastic sabots are really bad with deep groove slow-twist barrels. The powder will burn past the gaps and melt the plastic all in your bore and its a real pain to get cleaned up...

Axe

[Captchee]

whelp im going to step on alot of peoples toes here and go against the laws of physics and tell you yes
 I know because I do it .
 My load for my house rifle is 110 grains of 3 F
 She has very large deep  round bottom rifling  and shooting a a 435 grain Burton  pattern minie  she will hold an 8 inch pattern at 100 yards .  
 So  IMO it depend on what type of rifling you have and how well the conical seals to the bore

 here is a photo of the minie i use . it shows a 58 but i use a 54 cal  of the same design

[mark davidson]

Captchee, Sir, I mean no disrespect I promise, but 8 inches at 100 yards is indeed as you stated a "pattern" not to be mistaken for a group. An 8 " group at 100 yards from a bench rest would to me be completely out of the question for a hunting rifle. To each his own. Now 8" groups at 100 yards standing freestyle would be some fine shooting for most folk, but if that is all the gun and load is capable of it would be time for me to go back to the drawing board. JMO- no disrespect intended:-)

[rollingb]

Mark,... I have to agree with you, it takes a sub-2 inch "group" at 100 yards (off the bench) to make me smile.  

[Captchee]

that group is off hand not benched lol . it will and has taken more elk  through the years  then i can count . granted 100 is still far  with most all those shots being  under 50 yards .
 benched  she will do better  im sure . but i dont hunt from  a bench or stand  so i care little for what my hunting load does of a bench . what maters is what  my rifle does off hand .
I simply do not shoot past 100  regardless conical or other
 i can tell you benched , she will  hold  , concerning RB ,  less then a 4 inch string "NOTICE I SAID STRING" . but i  did not get a mould for those conicals when i bought the rifle . i only recieved 50  of them  when i bought it .
 the owner told me she would throw a sub 3 inch group at 100 . but frankly i dont know . i swallowed hard just  tossing 5 at paper off hand . im now down to less then 10  so that gives you  some idea  how stingy i am with those  conicals .
 im very close to being forced to  having a mould made  as i cannot  buy one .nore is the fella i bought the rifle from alive to make me more .

 off hand i have taken long gong shoots at  over 300 yards  hitting a 3ftx3ft  target 5 out of 5 times  ,off hand  with 80 grains of 3Fand a patched 530 RB . but off hand at 100 im lucky to be able to hold a 6 inch patern off   even with rb .
 its not the rifle its me
 so given that group with rb off hand  2 inches more with conicals off hand , naaa  im not worried in the least  considerning the load and recoil is much , much higher  with 2X the wieght and 30 grains more powder

 i can tell you this much as well . that conical will tear through bone , mussel and bone   and not blink with from what i exsperianced no  sign of stoping .. the wound channel is right at 3/4 of an inch across
 i have full confidance that even at 100 yards  my rifle will but that conical  right into and  through the kill area  with no fear at all .
 none

[Captchee]

also as anote here . remeber energy readings for a conical mean nothing  unless that conical is stopped . if it goes all the way through , it has not transfured its complet store of energy into the target

[rollingb]

that group is off hand not benched lol . it will and has taken more elk  through the years  then i can count . granted 100 is still far  with most all those shots being  under 50 yards .
 benched  she will do better  im sure . but i dont hunt from  a bench or stand  so i care little for what my hunting load does of a bench . what maters is what  my rifle does off hand .
I simply do not shoot past 100  regardless conical or other
 i can tell you benched , she will  hold  , concerning RB ,  less then a 4 inch string "NOTICE I SAID STRING" . but i  did not get a mould for those conicals when i bought the rifle . i only recieved 50  of them  when i bought it .
 the owner told me she would throw a sub 3 inch group at 100 . but frankly i dont know . i swallowed hard just  tossing 5 at paper off hand . im now down to less then 10  so that gives you  some idea  how stingy i am with those  conicals .
 im very close to being forced to  having a mould made  as i cannot  buy one .nore is the fella i bought the rifle from alive to make me more .

 off hand i have taken long gong shoots at  over 300 yards  hitting a 3ftx3ft  target 5 out of 5 times  ,off hand  with 80 grains of 3Fand a patched 530 RB . but off hand at 100 im lucky to be able to hold a 6 inch patern off   even with rb .
 its not the rifle its me
 so given that group with rb off hand  2 inches more with conicals off hand , naaa  im not worried in the least  considerning the load and recoil is much , much higher  with 2X the wieght and 30 grains more powder

 i can tell you this much as well . that conical will tear through bone , mussel and bone   and not blink with from what i exsperianced no  sign of stoping .. the wound channel is right at 3/4 of an inch across
 i have full confidance that even at 100 yards  my rifle will but that conical  right into and  through the kill area  with no fear at all .
 none

I'd like to clarify that I don't "hunt off a bench" either  :rotf